Why I don't go to Church Anymore
by Darin Hufford
My wife and I made a decision about two and a half years ago that we were going to stop going to the "Institutional church". We did not come to this conclusion through bitterness caused by church, we simply made a decision based on things that we had seen and personally felt for years but were (until that time) unwilling to admit. When I say "church" I am not talking about the Church Universal. I'm talking about the institution of church that we know today.
For the most part I think "church" is a business. In fact, many churches readily and openly admit that. I have a difficult time believing that what we know of "church" today is at all what Christ had in mind. It's become a play. Worse than that; it's become a rerun of a play. And yet even worse, it's become a rerun of a play, lead by hijackers.
Someone somewhere along the line got the idea of putting on a "play" for people and calling it church. The spectators sit quietly waiting for the performance to begin. Each week they start with colorful music and someone leads them in four or five songs. Then the spectators sit down and wait for the announcements. Once that's finished, the spectators are encouraged to give money to the "playhouse". Then the spectators sit quietly and listen to a guy stand up and tell them what God is saying. When he finishes, all the spectators file out the door, pick up their children and head for home. One the way home they discuss the play. How the worship team did, how the Pastor preached and so on. Seven days later, they return and experience it all over again.
I call it a "rerun" of a play because if you have been to church for three years or more, that's exactly what it is. They basically quit filming new episodes, and are now playing the spectators reruns of old episodes. It's the same thing every week. Perhaps this is why Christ's ministry was only three years. After that, He would only be repeating Himself. Other than a new song here and there, everything else is pretty much the same. The Pastor reminds you that "Christ took the nails for you", and you need not to sin, and you need to read your Bible and pray, and (most importantly) you need to come to church every week and put money in the offering, and then it's over. Week in and week out, it's the same thing.
I'm not blaming the Pastors of America for this. I honestly don't think it's their fault for not preaching something "new" every week. Truthfully, I don't think they could even if they wanted to. I do however; blame them for making people feel like they have to continue coming week after week or else God will be disappointed in them. This is where the "business" of the playhouse comes in. People are encouraged to keep coming back because the organization needs their money. If people ever felt like they could graduate from the institution, and live their lives in the world with what they know, it would be a devastating blow that eventually would destroy the institution. It is this way because "church" as you and I know it today has been built on the teaching that "once you are in, you are never allowed to leave". There is no such thing as graduation or moving on. We are taught that we must attend every week for the rest of our lives regardless of whether we know the Gospel or not.
If you think rationally about it; it's a ridiculous notion to think that anyone benefits much from sitting through a re-cap of something they already know week after week. It's even more ridiculous to believe that people "need" to be there every week in order to grow spiritually. My personal opinion is that it's just not worth going after a certain amount of time. It's not even set up for fellowship. You come alone, you sit alone, you worship alone, you listen to the sermon alone and you leave alone. Real fellowship happens at Starbucks with a friend or in your home over dinner with people you love. Yes the Bible does say, "Do not forsake the gathering together" but that's a far cry from "Do not forsake going to a building and singing songs that were selected by someone else and sitting quietly while a guy talks for forty five minutes about a bunch of stuff you have either already heard or you already knew, and then leaving". That's not church; that's tradition.
All in all I think the institutional church is great for people who don't have any Christian friends. It's a great place to meet other believers. If you DO have Christian friends however, why would you continue to go? My belief is that you ARE the church. When people ask me where I go to church, it's like asking me where I go to Darin. I AM the church. Wherever I go, church is there because I am there. I am outreach, wherever I go there is an outreach because I am there. I think the problem with the modern day church is that people "GO TO IT". It shouldn't be a place we go. Church should be something we become.
I say that the modern day church is a "rerun of a play" that is lead by "hijackers" because I feel that the modern day church has hijacked everything that flows naturally from people who know and love God. They have institutionalized "heart things" and forced them into a robotic and ritualistic set of traditions.
The problem with the Institution of Church as we know it today is that it almost always seeks to "take over" or "hijack" every living expression that results from authentic relationship. Then it tries to purchase a spiritual Patent on each individual experience and dictate when and where it will manifest again. Over time we find that everything that would naturally flow from relationship with God is no longer allowed to flow naturally. It must now flow under the orders and instruction of those who run the Institution.
Beautiful things such as communion have now become cold and institutionalized. After all "church" now owns the Patent on communion. It was originally created so that people who love each other could have dinner together and in the midst of that time of fellowship, they would stop and remember Christ and what He accomplished on their behalf. They would acknowledge their present freedom and give praise to the One who brought it to them. Today, however, communion has been reduced to anything BUT communion. We now sit in neat little rows, and are handed a shot glass of grape juice and a tiny cracker. We partake of it like robot-clones on a massive assembly line. There is no fellowship, no eating together, no enjoying the company of the person next to you, no interactive conversation about the work of Christ, and no freedom. You see-dinner with friends and discussions about Christ are things that naturally flow from a person who knows Christ and has freedom. The institution has hijacked that natural thing and taken away its life.
Another intimate thing that has been hijacked by the institution is Worship. Did you know that everywhere in the New Testament where worship is mentioned, it is described as something that transpires between the individual and God alone? New Testament worship is a lifestyle of intimacy between a person and their God. Today it has been hijacked by the institution and worship begins at 7:00pm and ends at precisely 7:30pm on Sunday nights. We are told what to sing, how to sing it, when to raise our hands to God, when to clap our hands, when to stand up and when to sit down. It begins when they tell us it begins and it ends when they decide it ends. The very life of worship has been strangled out of almost everyone's personal walk.
Giving is one of the most beautiful "natural manifestations" of a person filled with the love of God. Unfortunately the institution has hijacked that as well. A "giver" by today's Christian standards is a person who gives to the institution. Almost all teachings on giving today are in reference to giving to the church. Even the very essence of giving has been turned upside down. The New Testament teaches "freely you have received, now freely give" and the institution has turned it around and convinced an entire generation that "If you freely give, you will freely receive". I personally believe that the day "true giving" was murdered was the day that the teaching of "Seed Faith Giving" was introduced to the church. "Giving" went from being something a person did out of love for another, to being something we are taught to do in order to get something in return. We are even told how much to give, where to give and when to give it. The spontaneity of giving from a heart of love has been quenched and beaten into an exact mold to fit the institutions purposes. I have said many times that the world is unaffected by the giving of the church, because the church doesn't give to the world, it gives to itself. The church stiffs the world.
Today's church members cannot even have relationships unless they were formed and directed by the institution. People are told where to go to "cell group", who to open up to, what to do when at the meeting and how to do it. Nothing is allowed to happen on its own. Everything is pre-determined and laid out in the exact institutional order. Gone are the days where each person chooses their own friends based on who they "click" with and who they don't. Today, friendship is determined and ordered by the leadership and who ever the church links you together with. If you live on 5th street and Main, and Mr., and Mrs. Jones live close to your area; they become your "home fellowship" group. You must open up to them and have relationship with them. Every Thursday evening at 6:00 sharp-relationship begins and at approximately 7:45 it ends. You are encouraged to NOT have friends outside of the church. The institution dictates where you can and cannot go after work, who you can go there with and what you can and can't do while you are there.
If you look closely all throughout the institution you will find that almost every single area of a person's life is "taken over" and hijacked by the institution. Even things like "hearing from God" have been taken away. People are taught that the way they hear from God is "through the pastor" or "through others in the institution". Even the most personal things of all are stripped away. The beauty and honor of being responsible for your children growing up with an understanding of the Heart of God, is hijacked away from you. Now the institution makes no bones about the fact that they believe it's their responsibility to teach your children. If you don't bring your kids to their classes, YOU are failing. How has this happened? In the beginning, the institution of church served the people. Today it has been reversed. The people are taunted and manipulated into serving the institution.
I do believe it's time for people to take a stand and yell "FREEDOM"!!!!! We need to take back what was stolen from us. I am becoming more and more convinced that the "woman who rides the beast" (In Revelation 17) and drinks a cup filled with the blood of the saints; IS THE INSTITUTION OF CHURCH.
If you would like to read more on this I would suggest that you read the article just above this one entitled, "The Church that Christ Built."
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Thank you, thank you. It's exciting when I find someone that has the same thoughts I've had for the past few months. I belonged to a mega church, when I asked one of the ministers (we had 10) if I could start a ministry to help the people outside the ''church'' walls, the ones who were struggling financially, we could clean their homes, work in their yards, run errands, ect., I was told they wanted to make sure the in-house ministries were covered first, this was our Missions minister. Shortly after that I left the ''church'' and have been outside for almost 2 years. In IC we become Christian sponges: we sit, soak and sour. Sponges are supposed to be used, not just set around. I'm so thankful Father called me out of IC, I'm having the time of my life. I pray that my friends will join me.
I'm sorry I was trying to rate this post a 5 star, but somehow rated it a 3.
really good article. Thanks
Great post - thanks for summarizing the whole institutional "church" scene accurately and descriptively. Love your comments about worship. So many of the people we walk with who've left the IC don't miss anything about it except the "worship." As for myself, even though I was a pastor for many years and thought the worship was the most important part of the service ( because it prepared the people for my super important sermon!), I always wondered why I experienced the most meaningful worship when I was alone.
There's a lot there. I still go to the IC but I go with a renewed sense of freedom. IT has a coffee house atmosphere. I hang around drink coffee, pray some and maybe go to service. I admit I do love the music. I limit my involvement in the machine parts of it.
I understand and identify with your comments on worship,it was only when I practiced setting aside frequent alone times with God, that I got the most sublime glimpses of His beauty and grace.
Thanks for sharing. Although the church I attend doesn't have 'forced' association w members outside of services by way of other scheduled studies or activities (we are encouraged though to love one another & although we'll only ever 'click' with a few, to strive to have phileo love for all brethren, & ultimately God's agape love for all people), and after 10yrs I'm still hearing new sermons, we still have the 'once ur in, ur in' attitude. It's terrible! Our Org teaches that God's true church is His body of believers, those that keep His word, scattered all over the world, in various denominations. Yet, when a member attends less often, perhaps to 'rest' on the Sabbath, there's a feeling of 'loss' or lowered respect for that individual. It's like ur not a genuine Christian unless ur there.
I read your article Darin and my heart just felt sick. Sick, because I have been feeling and thinking along the same lines that your shared. I have been involved in ministry in institutional churches for over 20 years now. I was a missionary overseas, graduated with a bible degree, led youth, evangelism and drama ministries. I also led worship and preached. But now I am sick. I can't fight that gnawing feeling in the pit of my soul when I witness how contrived this thing is that we have made "church" to be. I don't know what to do about it. Anytime I say anthing in my institutional church that challenges them out of their conformity I get angry defensive responses. Thanks for the article. I thought I was alone in my feelings and thoughts on this.
I understand how you feel David. If you ever want to talk personally just email me. darinhufford@cox.net
As usual this article is great. But I wanted a clarification from you Darin about what you said: My belief is that you ARE the church. When people ask me where I go to church, it's like asking me where I go to Darin. I AM the church. Wherever I go, church is there because I am there. I am outreach, wherever I go there is an outreach because I am there. I think the problem with the modern day church is that people "GO TO IT". It shouldn't be a place we go. Church should be something we become. While I know and completely agre with you that the church is not a place to go, I struggle with the idea that I am the church. I cannot see myself as the church, because I'm nothing but a member of the church, the member of the body. Can the hand say:"I am the body"? or the eye: "I am the body"?
Konti - my answer to your question is YES. If I plunged a nail in your eye, people wouldn't say I attacked an eye; they would say I attacked Konti. What is done to Konti's eye is done to Konti. the same is true with the body. Though we are all just a part of the body, we are also the body. If your hand touched something in a crime scene and a detective later found your finger prints, they wouldn't say "We know that Konti's hand was in this room." The would say "Konti was here and we have proof of it."
Thank you Darin, I see your point. But saying I am part of the body, doesn't mean the rest of the body will not hurt if the hand or the eye hurts. I was just thinking that saying I am the church means I don't need brothers and sisters. Thank you again for your response.
We totally need the rest of the church. The very essence of this faith is love for one another, especially those in the body. Without them, love is not possible. It's like trying to be a loving person on Mars, it's impossible because there is no one to love. The body is a must.
Yea to live any other way as a christian is insanity.As a matter a fact thats' what happen to me.2001 was a lost year for me courtesy of anxiety,depression,and suicidal ideation.A broken relationship set things in motion but after 24 years of dedicated service to God "in the box"it should have never happened but it did.I don't have a history of any kind of mental illness and all of a sudden I do now.As horrible as that year was I knew on Nov.1,2001 that church would never be the same for me.As a result of this experience with depression I have hooked up with a volunteer group that goes to high schools,colleges,and even churches to try and educate people on depression and suicide.In short self-righteousness led to a 12 gauge in the mouth.When people ask me where I go to church.I go to Jesus
why don't people go to small churches where you can have more influence, get involved and really use your gift?
Andrew, I just found your comment and I thought it was interesting. I've found that small churches are just as controlling as mega churches and sometimes even more so. I've also found that they don't tend to be as friendly since they're often more inward focused and newcomers aren't always welcomed. Of course, there may be exceptions but I don't think there's any real advantage in going to a small church. The problem is with the system, not with the size of the church.
I came across this website today (Friday) as a result of researching a question I had about "The Shack" by Wm. Paul Young. My question is this: "If the Institutional Church (IC) is the wrong version of what Christ died for, then what is the 'correct' version? Or, if there is no 'correct' version, then what are the outworkings of a non-IC? In other words, if we aren't supposed to go the IC, then what are we supposed to do according to the 'Free Believers?' Also, why should I entrust your interpretatoin of theology verse an IC theologian or pastor? Why do you have the correct understanding? If the IC is truly 'the woman riding on the beast' then your theology better be 100% correct. If not, are you open to correction? Are you humble enough that your hermeneutics could be wrong?
Christ died for you and me (people), NOT the IC. We are the Church. He didn't die for the "system" of church. What we have today isn't described anywhere in scriptire. The Free Believers Network doesn't tell people not to go to the IC. Many Free Believers here do go. They just don't rely on it or consider it to be the same as "God". In terms of why you should trust my interpretation; you shouldn't! you should already know the truth in your heart. "You don't need anyone to teach you!" Remember, the pastors and theologians in Jesus' day didn't even recognize him. When I talk about the IC, I am talking about the man made government that controls the IC. It's not the IC itself that I refer to as "The woman...." It's the INSTITUTION I am refering to.
Darin: "In terms of why you should trust my interpretation; you shouldn't! you should already know the truth in your heart." Roger: My heart tells me differently. So, again, who has the correct understanding and why? Scripture tells us 'the heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure (Jer.17:9).' Whose heart is correct and why? Darin: "You don't need anyone to teach you!" Remember, the pastors and theologians in Jesus' day didn't even recognize him." Roger: Luke, Matthew, Paul, etc. were learned men. They teach me even today just as my Professors and Sunday School Teachers do. The Pharisees of Jesus' day are not equivalent to the theologians and pastors in my life. Maybe you have had isolated bad experiences in your spiritual journey. Mine does resemble yours.
*Mine does NOT resemble yours. Sorry about the typo.
Darrin, I agree with you that the institution of the church has problems. I agree with you that the people of the church can cause hurt in others' lives. In fact, I would wonder if there is a person in the church today who has not had a problem with another person in the body of Christ (or been hurt by them to various degrees). My problem is that though you are upset with something you call "the institution," ultimately the institution is itself made up of people from the body of Christ. So what exactly are you calling "institution"? The body of Christ? Or only the part of the body of Christ that goes to an organized church with a building? See, you would have to somehow demonstrate that all members of the institution are not real believers in God to support your theory. More...
If you are condemning the whole of the organized church then you must realize exactly who you are condemning here; people such as Martin Luther, Mother Teresa, Saint Nicholas of Myra (the model for Santa Claus), and the apostle Paul (who helped organize churches). The condemnation here also applies many other people who have devoted their entire lives to the study of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Finally, there is an implication here that is untrue: the body of Christ originally did not have structure or organization. The Scriptures tell us otherwise, especially those of the apostle Paul. There are specific people mentioned as leaders of churches or groups of people ("apostle to the Jews," "apostle to the Gentiles" Galatians 2). There is organization mentioned in Eph. 4:11; apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. These people are to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Also, there are overseers and deacons specifically mentioned in 1 Timothy 3. More...
Plus, we see already Paul discussing the position given to Timothy as evangelist after the laying on of hands by the council of elders (1 Timothy 4:14). There is enough evidence in the New Testament to show the early believers were already organized. Worship: The model for worship in the modern church comes from Isaiah 6 in the verses describing Isaiah's call from the Lord. In Isaiah's vision angels are praising God in the temple, Isaiah confesses his sinfulness in this place, God asks Isaiah "Whom shall I send?", and then tells Isaiah what to proclaim. In the New Testament, Paul reasons from the Scriptures in the synagogues as well as in the gathering places (Acts 17). For further info on worship, please look at Nehemiah 8 and 9. The people worshiped in unity and were greatly blessed.
Thank you for the space to comment. I do not agree with the condemnation of the organized church, but I certainly agree with the sharing of opinions. I hope my comments have been useful and encourage dialogue. Thank you again, MJ
Roger- Read on after that verse in Jerimiah. God's says that the time will come when He will give us a NEW heart. That time is NOW. That's the difference between Old Testament and New Testament. Also the comment about not needing a teacher was not a Darin Hufford quote. It came from 1 John 2:27"....the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit....."
Mary's 1st post - First off I never talked about people in the Church that causing pain. I think you're assuming that's what inspired this. If so, you're wrong. Secondly I already told Roger what I refer to when I use the word "Institution." It's not the people. It's the "system" that the people created. The "system" has nothing to do with the "body of Christ." It's not HUMAN. The system is a governmental system; not a person or group of people.
Mary's 2nd post - The institution of church once again is not a person. people such as Martin Luther, Mother Teresa, Saint Nicholas of Myra, and the apostle Paul are PEOPLE. They are not an institution. Also, the church system we have today was NOT organized by Paul. It was set in place 300 years after Paul by the leader of Rome. Constantine set it up to run like the Roman government. In Pauls day, the people met in homes and shared meals as friends. They didn't sit quietly while one guy talked. They all spoke up. What Paul did organize was done away with long long ago.
Mary's 3rd post - I don't think you read the article that was suggested reading at the end of this article. The problem with today's thinking is that when we see the word "Pastor" today, we immediately interpret it based on our modern day experience of what we know a "pastor" is. We do the same with "evangelist" and "apostle." If you study what those titles actually entailed in the early church, you will find that they didn't resemble our modern day definition in the slightest way. Also, contrary to what you may have picked up; there is NO implication that the body of Christ didn't have structure in the NT. The article specifically mentions the things that DID NOT have structure in the NT church, but have been taken over by structure today. BIG difference!!!
Mary's 4th post - Worship changed from Old Testament to New Testament. The people in OT times had to do it a certian way. In NT times however, everything is personal. This is why Paul says "sing and make music IN YOUR HEARTS." I would suggest you read my 2 Blogs on worship if you want to get an idea of what I'm saying. They are in the "blog" section (you might have to scroll through some pages): "Going for the Worship" and "What is Worship."
Mary's 5th post - Thanks for the dialogue Mary! I know that what you read on this site might sound like heresy to you. I assure you that it's not. The things spoken here are carefully thought out and they are written by someone who wasn't just an average laymen. I was a pastor in a church of 15 thousand. I've also spoken (and still speak) to hundreds of churches throughout the world. I tell you that only to show you that I'm not just an upset laymen who was treated badly and is now spouting off out of pain and hurt. If you really read what I'm saying and don't try to read between the lines, I think you'll find that I'm right. The problem is that you've been trained to read between the lines and in doing so you will almost never hear what is actually being said. "He Who Has Ears To Hear" :)
Roger, I hope you don't mind me butting in here but I want to share some of my thoughts. I agree with Darin that everyone needs to follow their heart which now is the home of the Holy Spirit and is a reliable source of guidance. I agree with what he has written in this article and I am a free believer who still attends on Sunday morning. Although I agree with Darin's teachings, I don't feel the need at this point in my life to leave the institution, I just don't depend on it for my spiritual life. I trust the Holy Spirit in me to guide me. As Darin said, many free believers have chosen to remain in the system. I even know of one who after many years out felt it was time to go back in as a free believer. This message has restored to us the freedom to follow God as he leads.
Darin, Thank you for writing this. I left my pastoral position and paycheck when I left the institution over 2 1/2 years ago. Now what? What do I do now when most of my so-called friends from the institution no longer know how to relate to me, or I to them for that matter? How do I answer the ones who will still talk with me when they ask, "When are you going to find a church?" How do I answer myself whe I ask the very same question? I didn't leave because I was angry. I left because I felt that the Spirit of what Jesus spoke about was being left behind for prophetic crazes, the newest revelation, the doctrine of a man, and seeing a town die all around me. Cell groups didn't help. The 3 hour Sunday morning repeat-a-thon didn't help. So again, now what?
I have pastored for twenty-eight years and I have been greatly disappointed with the denomination that I served. But I have more recently become aware of their helpless state it is in. They appear to be captive to tradition and its self-perpetuation. I can't count the number of plans and programs they had to increase membership and thereby preserve itself. How sad. It has always haunted me that there must be a better way to worship, because God has broken through in the midst an unstructured moment and we have experienced genuine fellowship. Then I would try to structure that experience into my services. It obviously didn't work. It never occurred to me that the institution was the problem. I was always trying to repair it. Now I must get out. It's as hard as giving up any habit.
I agree the institutional church in America needs revival. I also agree that Christianity isn't about productions / consumerism / being spectators. But let's be careful we don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Gathering at Starbucks with a few hand picked friends can be just as lacking in true obedience to Christ as gathering in a building. In a building, for instance, you have an opportunity to interact with folks you wouldn't choose as friends elsewhere - which is part of true agape. Missions, church planting, compassionate service, discipleship of children, and, yes, sacrificial giving are all part of full obedience to Christ. Frankly my observation of people I know who drop out of "regular" church is that they leave all these important mission activities undone.
Aida - Thanks for your comments. I do not mind you entering the conversation. It's a public blog :) I guess I must take issue on two things: 1) Holy Spirit guiding believer's hearts, 2) Free Believers still in IC. 1) If the same HS who is in me is in Darin, then we are being told different things about the IC. 2) Darin has repeatedly railed against the IC (calling it the 'woman who rides upon the beast,' 'worship that is a lie,' to name a few from the blog threads I have read. I don't know much about Darin other than what I read, but the 'about' section of free believers does not line up with the blog threads. Those free believers who are still in the IC would have a tough time convincing me they can stay in the IC considering the language of the blog threads.
Dennis, I prefer to allow the Holy Spirit to bring those he wants me to meet and spend time with. Jesus said he will build his church. I don't think we have to worry whether or not we are missing a meeting with someone. Also, statistics show that people who leave actually do better. My guess is that you say that's your observation but you really haven't observed from close up. usually when people leave, their church friends leave them and tell others that they have fallen away and no longer practice the things they should. Read the book "Revolution" to see the real studies done on people who leave.
I understand the church impression you have. I too rebelled many years ago against the organized church. I found hope in the scriptures as I continued my jouney.The Holy Spirit living in me revealed organized religion but also uncovered a Spirit filled body of believers. They are rare, and anything good requires personal commitment. Government whether in the church, home or civil is messy, why? because it's comprised of broken humanity. Remove or redefine God and you remove joy, peace, love and compassion. With every church I attended I discovered the core of that body, God was at work. My advice to you, don't critizise, encourage others.God will not and cannot fit your idealogy but be assured the core of believers praying, believing, living Gods word is alive
Thanks for the comment David. I'll have to respectfully disagree with the advise to not criticize. Jesus routinely criticized the oppressive system of his day because it damaged people. That is exactly the spirit from which I write. People are hurt by these things. To sit and not say anything about it would be unloving. Remember john the Baptist literally screaming at the church leaders of his time? This article is NOT in any way about church "people." It's about the government of our meetings. It's also not about what I expect from God or what my ideology of Him is either. I know Him well. No problem there. This article also doesn't say that I don't think there is a true body of believers, nor does it imply that question whether or not God is at work in people. All of this I see and know.
Roger, If you don't believe that the Holy Spirit guides believers I can't help you with that one. You seem to be unable to seperate the government of church from the body of Christ, or from God for that matter. You are clearly upset and trying with all your might to defend the "system." My question to you is WHY? Why does this upset you so much? Why do you hold this system so dear to your heart? You seem to be in love with it and you certianly put a lot of faith in it. Honestly, if you don't believe what I'm telling you, move on. You and your wife are into scripture. Why don't you show me where I'm wrong scripturally. Show me a New Testament verse that goes against my words here. The "Woman/beast" comment was an opinion and stated as one. Why do you care though?
This is good discussion. Jesus was able to identify the coruption within the church because He was God. You are not. You are making general judgements on the entire church body. Again you cannot define what worshipping God looks like from Gods perspective because you are not God. Interpeting Gods word to look like you think it should is dangerous. If you respect that each of us has a very personal relationship with God, the Holy Spirit our guide, than you should not sit in judgement of our desire to serve Him no matter if we are imprisoned or sitting in a Sunday school class. Give God the benefit, that He can use even human messiness for His good work.
How sad that you think only Jesus can identify the coruption in the church. Remember that the Spirit of God lives inside of us, so we have the same power as Jesus had. What is having the mind of Christ all about if not seeing the world through his perspective. Once again here it is....you are accusing me of things I never said. I NEVER ONCE made a judgment on "the Body." I made judgments on the institution. For some reason too are unable to see the difference which is quite sad. It's also sad that you think we humans canot see things from God's perspective. Finally, WHERE in the world did I sit in judgment on people's desire to serve him. I'm left wondering what article you read. Certianly not this one. Everything you accuse me of is not even there.
Darin, I respect your opinions and my intentions are not to wrongly accuse you but please don't condiscend since my perspective might be a bit broader. Consider this,I agree the church is a form of government, a corruptable institution, but do you believe God is helpless and cannot reach the lost in spite of coruption,greed etc. We are on a battleground for the lost. There is no instituion which can overcome the believer who is powered by the Holy Spirit. Believe me God has a purpose in spite of the "institution". I take issue, not that I disagree with your analysis of the church, but to generalize the "entire" instituion as bad and Godless and thereby we should just quit going to church. No my friend, we should put on the armour, believe God works in the pew or at Starbucks.No boundaries.
David, know that I never said or even suggested that because of what I see in the Institution, God is helpless and cannot reach the lost. I think that the fundamental difference between our opinions is this: I do not believe that the institutional system that we have today is at all from God. I believe that it's entirely man maid. You seem to believe that it came from God, was ordained by God and even though it may be corrupt and have problems, we shouldn't leave it or even suggest to others that they have that option. If we were talking about a Walmart who mistreated it's employees, you would be with me all the way. Our disagreement is on where this system originated from; God or man. You defend the institution because you think it's sacred. I don't find it anywhere in scripture.
Darin Said: "Roger, If you don't believe that the Holy Spirit guides believers I can't help you with that one." Roger responds: Why are you putting words in my mouth? I whole-heartedly believe the HS guides believers. Darin said: "You are clearly upset and trying with all your might to defend the "system." My question to you is WHY? Why does this upset you so much? Why do you hold this system so dear to your heart? You seem to be in love with it and you certianly put a lot of faith in it." Roger responds: I am not having an emotional response. Why do you think that? I am basing my critique on the information I find in your blogs: "The IC is the woman who rides upon the beast," "..the IS is not at all from God," "..worship is a lie," etc. These are your words. I am opposing them.
This is addressed to Kevin Fifield. I'm sorry that your comments have been lost in all of the other more aggressive comments being posted. Your comment has really touched my heart. If it would help, we have a forum on this site where we discuss our journeys and encourage one another. We don't argue or judge anyone else's journey. We just love and try to walk together as fellow journeyers. We'd love for you to join us. Also, if you'd like a one on one conversation, I'd love to hear from you. My email address is: forgettingtheformerthings@yahoo.com. Feel free to contact me. I'd love to get to know you better and to encourage you.
//Mary's 1st post - First off I never talked about people in the Church that causing pain. I think you're assuming that's what inspired this. If so, you're wrong. // Okay, that’s certainly a possibility. //The institution of church once again is not a person. people such as Martin Luther, Mother Teresa, Saint Nicholas of Myra, and the apostle Paul are PEOPLE. They are not an institution.// But they did not condemn the institution to the extent that you are doing: the whore of Babylon. Were they deceived? How do we know? //It's the "system" that the people created.// How is it that the institutionalized system arose? You mentioned Rome and Constantine in the *4th century, but what about the time prior to that? The apostolic fathers, anti-nicene fathers, and into the 3rd century.
//Also, the church system we have today was NOT organized by Paul.// I did not mean to imply that it was. But Paul and the early church fathers were organizing the church (it is clear in 1 Timothy 4:14 that Timothy’s evangelism ministry was given or commissioned or entrusted to him by a council of elders…who are they?) Those leaders who followed them continued to organize the church. This can be read about in books such as “Church History in Plain Language” by Bruce Shelley or through researching Christian history using webpages.
//What Paul did organize was done away with long long ago.// Please explain the previous statement. //In Pauls day, the people met in homes and shared meals as friends. They didn't sit quietly while one guy talked. They all spoke up. // But that is not how entirely how Jesus or Paul taught. Sometimes they spoke, everyone listened, and questions where addressed afterward (Mount of Olives - Matthew 5, Luke 5 - man lowered on a mat). I guess what I want to know from my postings this time is: What do I do according to a Free Believer's outlook in order to outwork my belief in God? //may sound like heresy to you// Nope. Just checking on how a believer fulfills Scriptures like Matthew 28:19-20, Ephesians 4:11, and the passages with deacons, elders, commissioning people to work and ministry.
In reference to your article on Christ building the church: I read it and there is a lot of generalization of churches. You cannot reasonably assert that all of the churches have the intentions and/or problems that you have asserted in your article. This would require special knowledge; ie. a God's eye-view of the world. In this view, I have no sufficient means of 1 Thes. 5:21, "test all things, hold onto the good." It is entirely up to me to determine exactly what Christ is saying to me; even though my mind is a fallible mind and subject to the fallen nature of man. In fact, I think this view self-refutes, because no one can be sure or even test if this view may be wrong, because then you fall prey to the "lies of the institution." (my quotes) How do we check this for falsification?
//Where in the Bible does it say that WE are supposed to disciple people?// Matthew 28:19-20. Shorten version to address the above statement: Jesus said, “Go and make disciples, baptizing and teaching them to obey everything I commanded you.” The early church fathers seem to agree on training provided by teachers in that they even set up Christian schools as early as the second century. Bruce Shelley "Church History in Plain Language." Darrin, there are certain aspects of what you are saying that are right. But you need to evidence why they are right and determine to what extent the are right (provide references). The broad generalizations seem more divisive than unifying, and are ultimately untrue as over-arching generalizations. Thank you so much for the conversation. MJ
Mary and Roger, I am going to put an end to this comment section conversation. It's really getting no where. Debates never end in either person changing their mind. If you wish to speak with me further on this subject, feel free to email me personally at darinhufford@cox.net and include your phone number and I'll call you. I'll be home in a few days so you'll have to wait until then for the call. This section of the website is for comments, not for long discussions.
Kevin - I want to say I'm so sorry for not responding to your post sooner. I promised myself I would respond right away but then go caught up in this crazyness you see below your comment. I want to talk with you personally. I totally understand where you are right now. Please send me your phone number so I can call you darinhufford@cox.net. If you're not comfortable doing that, just email me there and we can talk. Blessings man. Hang in there:)
I am pre-warning everyone that in one day I am going to delete this long conversation. I'll leave you're original complaint about the article but I'm goiing to delete the exchange that went on and on. This section of the website is not meant to be a forum. Also the spirit of it distracts people from the purpose of this site. We have a forum for discussions like this and I encourage you to go there. I'll allow both Roger and Marry to have their original comment posted where they disagree, but the rest will be taken off. thanks.
Darin, ?????? Were rules posted for the comment section? We will abide by your rules....your site, your rules. Please post your rules so we know what is acceptable, what is in the right spirit, and what is not acceptable. If the rules change because you don't like what you see, then post detailed rules with detailed explanations. Our goal is not to present a problem for you, but to rightly divide God's Word as is your goal. Our apologies if we have broken some unwritten or written rule. That is not our intention.
The problem is that rightly dividing God's word means one thing to one person and another thing to another. rules or no rules, people don't read these articles so they can turn around and read an altercation that lasts about 20 extra posts, where nothing is accomplished. I end up getting emails from folks asking me to delete the conversation because it's destracting. I think we've established that you don't agree with what I've written. That's ok. I will leave your disagreement posted. I'll let you have the last word even. I'm just not interested in carrying this on in front of everyone else. It's not good for anyone. If discussing this is truly what you want; do what I said and email me your phone number. I'm just finished with this. It's fruitless.
Darin, thanks for expressing in ur blog what my family and I have not had the words to express. After almost 14 years of helping to pioneer an IC and watching the intimacy of a small fellowship grow cold as the organization grew, we took the step of faith to begin being the church in our home. Yes it took almost 14 years but the Lord prepared us along the way. We meet with those who the Lord Jesus sends and have wonderful times of fellowship and making much of Jesus. We still maintain relationships with those in the IC and always focus on building up the body of Christ. My six year old and my sixteen year old get it because they enter into the discussions and ask great questions that the adults and other kids get to answer from the Bible and our own relationship's with Jesus. Thanks again.
What a great report Joe. Thanks so much.
I agree with you in that if Sunday service is the only expression of your faith, then you are right. The real issue is not the IC, but are you following Jesus on a personal level? Is He your Lord, not just on Sunday morning, but everday? Now, the problem with people who drop out is: 1. They start something that is exactly how many of the IC started. Home churches, coffee house (ie. Starbucks) is not a new idea. They just grew and organized. 2. Looking at your website, it's look eerily similar to the IC. You, standing in front of a crowd, preaching! You can call it something different because it's not on Sunday, but it is what it is. If God called you out of the IC, be obedient, but please don't critize something that IS a blessing for thousands and God is still using.
It is not the act of standing up in front of people and speaking that is wrong or harmful to people. It is not organization either. The IC I came from had couches, tables, chairs, a bathroom, carpeting, lights and running water. It's silly to think that getting rid of these things is the answer. THe difference lies in whether or not the people are being controlled. You would be surprised to find that MOST people who drop out of IC do not do any of the things you listed. Most of them don't start home churches or hold meetings in Starbucks. They simply live free and have natural relationships. (What if God called me to criticize a system that was actually hurting people????, would you STILL want me to be obedient??)
FREEDOM! Thanks for writing this article Darin. I'm afraid that 800 characters are not enough for me to describe the change...better put the awakening of my hearts voice that I've quieted and allowed to be silenced for so long. My question is this Darin, how does one go about freeing themselves from this institution and to do so with love? Personally I've built real relationship with people in my church and carry a lot of responsibility. I don't feel that it would be right to just up and leave in a storm and burn bridges. I can't ignore what my heart is telling me anymore either. So how do you go about making the transition in love? I know that we can't control peoples reactions, but we can control ours...so what do you do? Could you write an article on this sometime?
Or better put, is this something you would consider writing an article on? :)
Unfortunately, I've never found a way to explain this to "church friends" without them black listing you over it. It seems that no matter how gentle you are in explaining your new beliefs; you are eventually viewed as contaminated by just about everyone who claimed to be your friend. There are some exceptions, but they are few and far between.
Thanks for the insights Darin. It's hard to explain an entirely new approach to people when they haven't been so enlightened. I have been trying to hear God for all of my life, with a myriad of barriers, fromm all over the place, from inside me included.I know exactly what you mean about the IC, the people and the leaders, and if I don't at any point, I take Solomon's words to heart and 'get knowledge' and wisdom and let it percolate for a while. So much that you, Wayne, Frank and others say has so strummed the cords of my heart that I thirst for the Father and am finding Him at last! I recommend the sceptical to simply wait on God for HIS light in their hearts, and if ANYTHING gets in the way, let it go for the supreme glory of direct communion with God, but don't kill the messengers.
I used to drive the machine. I was the biggest pharisees. But, now i am free from this from 5 years back...when I see stuff like this nowadays on your website I knew that what I leaving a position in IC have set me free. I still attend Church services, but I would never be involved in leadership again. Thank you Lord for freedom...
Darin, In my opinion your article or blog was well done, and very accurate. I can relate with what you wrote through personal experience. Being a free belever now, and looking in retrospect, I believed you nailed it on the head with what we experience being a member of an IC. Like you, I have no problem with the people, only with the system. I thank the Lord I ran into you at Facebook and became a fan of your community. I'm so happy to realize I'm not alone in my views. Lord bless you my friend, and I'm looking forward to reading more of your articles.
Thanks Bryan. You rock.
I am now living in this freedom for almost a year and it feels good! It seems as I became free from religion, I became deeply in bondage in my marriage. I attended a mega church, where my wife is still in leadership, but I can see clearly now. My wife does not want to hear anything I have to say, nor will she sit down with me to look at things in the Word. The few times we did, she was looking at it from the perspective of how we were taught. We both have always thought that we were suppose to start a church. I clearly heard God one day ask me "Why would I call you to start a church when you ARE the church?" My wife looked at me sideways when I shared that with her and does not want to hear anything I have to say regarding this. (continued)
There's others that I have met that are on the same page as believing the same things, which she does not want me to speak to anymore. Two of the individuals happens to be family members. We were seeking truth at the same time, but not knowing it. My first sign of freedom was realizing that I am not required to "pay" tithes anymore. The more I shared this with people and had scriptures to back up everything I shared, the more people were saying that I am hurt and offended. This subject alone caused a HUGE wall of separation in my home and marriage. I don't force anything on her and don't even bring it up anymore, per her request. I do the best I can to walk in love and respect her desires, but it's hard to continue to allow her to walk in darkness, knowing I can help. Any advice?
I feel for ya man. It doesn't sound like she's open to anything different from what she was raised with. Will she read any books?
Not really, unless they are endorsed by our pastor. I've tried to share some things with her about him and she took it personally. She is willing to listen to and read books by a minister that focuses on the family and marriage, but again he too is endorsed by our mega church pastor.
The kind of church I have been in used to have a service where the people could get up and suggest a hymn or pray or read or say something then there would be communion then a sermon by a speaker (a lay person or one of the leading elders - there was not a pastor). But women could not participate and there would always be long silences where nobody would have anything to say. That didn't bother me much but some people cannot stand silence, so that kind of worship has greatly reduced in favour of pre-organised worship now. The collection was a box left unobtrusively down the back. But the bag is passed around now. However, even back then everybody knew the "rules"; even without a great heirarchy of leadership everybody knew what you would and would not do. I remember as a new Christian
giving somebody something I had won in a raffle and did not need and the look on this lady's face!(She did try to temper her horror; I'll give her credit) but I did not know raffles were a no no! So to cut a long story short; you can have an institution without even intending to. This church originally tried to break away from the IC idea. I hope free believers never becomes like that. (Sorry for intimating such a thing could be possible, but people being people, we can make a religion out of anything!!!)