Emotional Molestation
Darin and Aimee have a conversation about a school retreat Darin’s daughter attended where the speaker preyed upon the children’s emotions in order to make them believe a life changing event took place within them. The two begin to talk about how many Christian churches do the same thing. Getting people emotional has become a God-ingredient in most church services today. People don’t even feel like they’ve encountered God unless they cried their eyes out at some point during the service. Many Free Believers are on a long road to recovery from this line of thinking. Understanding that God is present and involved in our lives whether we’re emotional about it or not is one of the first steps everyone must take in the wild.
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So true! I'm getting all angry and emotional just listening to this:)
But seriously, I think I used to be emotionally exhausted most of the time when I was in church because I committed to being emotionally vulnerable to anyone/everything (thinking in some weird way that this was obedience to God/honesty). Eventually I ended up drawing people to me who were emotionally abusive and looking for a project to 'mentor'. Having said all of that, it wasn't that I really genuinely reacted to all that I was supposed to react to it's just that I was so physically tired from participating in all of the church activities and events, it was easy to break me down. So true that we are taught to tie emotions into change, repentance and spiritually significant experiences. I was told by pastors at a retreat that if we weren't crying about our sin, we weren't sorry/repentant. Such b.s. Anyway, anyone else out there enjoying their new found peace and presence of mind? I am.
2 have the 4sight 2 give your children the "heads up" with regards 2 maintaining objectivity in the face of potential emotional manipulation/molestation is the (oft unrecognized) responsibility of every parent. So many parents have a church or life experience that normalizes - perhaps even encourages - this behavior and experience. In the case of a child - they must be protected/equipped 2 recognize and defend themselves against this coercion. 4 the adult,the responsibility is always ours 2 choose the people/things that we subject ourselves 2; and the environment wherein we have the experience. Unfortunately, I.C is often a magnet 4 people with horrendously dysfunctional histories - whose sole evidence of their humanity is in lockstep with: their low personal views of self, the world, believing lies about God, and their ability 2 whore out their emotions publicly - 4 the oh so slim hope of rescue by anyone B4 going back "home" 2 caves/pits of despair. Fruit of law/sin centrd message
None of this is easy,it seems everyday we hear of some crazy church idea to get us closer to God.I guess the the only way we can deal with some of this madness is to realize that God has blessed us with the truth and with this truth lense we can spot any type teaching that isn"t based on love.Maybe Darrin the Lord let this happen to once again shed another layer of lies as it relates to day to day living in Christ.I have no doubt this podcast will help a lot of people realize they aren"t crazy afterall and the time has come to put off all this emotional garbage once and for all.
Ugh, listening to this brings back memories. The last 6 months I was in church I became repulsed by the emotional manipulation around me. I started skipping the worship time during meetings because I couldn't stand watching people in the congregation work themselves up into a sobbing frenzy.
Also during that time I accompanied the church youth group on a retreat, and the speaker was incredibly slick and persuasive. On the last night he spoke, there was an hour-long altar call, and nearly all 200 people in the building were at the front crying and shouting. I was one of maybe 5 or 6 people who didn't go to the front, and I sat there stone-faced and bored, wondering why I felt nothing. The next week the youth pastor began berating the students because they weren't being as "passionate" in church as they had been at the retreat.
You couldn't pay me to go back to that.
You 2 have definitely hit the nail on the head once again!! I totally related to all you shared, also the comments from fellow F.B.'S...Been there done that...No wonder we use to leave just about every Sunday feeling emotionally drained and carrying a bundle of guilt and a massive headache!!
After 7 years away from all that and quite a crazy freedom journey of letting go of a lot of lies, I'm beginning to enjoy everyday life knowing God's with me 24/7 no matter what, and I rest in that...it's Awesome! Probably the hardest thing now is watching our Son (who by the way was the "rebellious one" in his teens who never wanted to come to boring church)and his lovely new wife ,who's parents are their pastors, great people too...but being affected by all that now...we watch, wait and Love....Thank You again for your courage to speak the truth that so many need to hear... :)
I REALLY appreciate this. I was SUCH a melancholy, emotional teenager, likely because of religion and the mountaintop and valley religious experiences. Amazing to look back and see how much that affected the rest of my life! Thank you for putting the truth out there.
I am so glad you did this topic! I do know exactly what you are saying. I am so glad to be in the wild, but at the same time I recognize that same manipulation in the management where I work. They can't seem to understand why I don't buy into it. Recognizing manipulation is getting easier. Thanks for the reminder.
Someone at my church taught me, "If you don't cry, it doesn't count." And I fully embraced that! Ugh, indeed. My counselor called it "spritiual abuse" and gave me a list of 12 signs -- I hit all but one (because that related to marriage and I'm single.) I still struggle with this sometimes. But mostly, I very much enjoy the simplicity of my relationship with God now, and knowing that Jesus is always here listening. However, Darrin, if you start singing again, we're going to have to have a discussion about "audio abuse". ;-)
Wonderful topic! Personally, until I stepped away from the IC 3 years ago, I was always a very emotional person ie: I cried all the time! Not only in church, but in my every day life. I always said I cried when I was mad, sad, or glad..it did not matter. Funny thing, for the last 3 years, I can count on 1 hand the times I have cried over anything! I have often wondered why the frequency of tears disappeared as I have certainly not become emotionLESS. HMMM!?! I have no anger at the IC, or anyone for that matter, for having believed the lies for 50+ years. I am just truly relieved to finally understand how much God really does love me..NO MATTER WHAT! For me, the truth of being able to trust my Father for everything allows me to rest...really, really, rest in the knowledge that I am HIS! These last few years have been the beginning of a wonderful new journey into Freedom and Grace! Thanks for these podcasts and sharing your hearts!
Maryann I think you've just put this in such beautiful and easy to understand terms. It really IS truly amazing how healing the love of God is on our life. When we understand that we're okay with Him and He's crazy about us; nothing else matters. I love your heart. Thanks so much for posting your comment here. I want the world to see this.
The "altar call" was developed by Charles G. Finney during the Second Great Awakening in American revivalism. Finney stressed preaching that brought heavy sorrow and a sense of guilt on the hearers, and encouraged them to dwell on those emotions until they felt desperate enough to turn to the Lord for forgiveness. In the late '70s-early '80s, Keith Green promoted Finney's writings and I tried to follow some of them, dwelling on sins I had already been forgiven for, making endless lists of past sins and praying over them to try and remember even more, so my heart would be broken before God. Finney called that "breaking up the fallow ground"...
Great topic D and A. So true, my emotions got jacked up in hyper emotional hyper spiritual charismatic circles. You said how we have to crying before it is the presence of God back in those days...yep...,me. Nuts. Amy, you said how are emotions are a gift, so true. They are when they flow naturally from real experiences. Emotions when manipulated and used against you are a curse. Dr. Dobson wrote a book called "Emotions, can you Trust Them". He says no. He actually wanted to say Hell no, but thought that was a bad idea. Maybe he was already seeing peoples emotions twisted up in church back in the day and early days of the charismatic movement. Once again guys...good stuff.
Thanks for discussing this topic. There are so many mixed messages in the church and at several retreats that I've attended. I'm so glad that I finally got out of it. But on the flip side, for a long time I felt like was failing God after I left because I couldn't take it anymore. I love/loved God but hated the emotional rollercoaster and the ultimatums. It is exhausting and demoralizing to say the least. Your discussion was very helpful. Thanks again.
I had the same anger (and guilt) when my 13 yr old daughter was violated at a church youth rally/indoctrination. To make a long story short, by the end of the 2 day rally, they were asked to write down their feelings/emotions of what they had experienced. My daughter's letter read like one of someone ready to commit suicide, so much so, that the youth pastor felt the need to call me to let me know (otherwise I would never have known since the letters were not meant to be shared with parents). My first thoughts were extreme concern for my daughter and guilt that she had all of these problems and neither I nor my wife knew about it. Of course we talked to her and tried to determine the best thing to do. In the process, I learned more and more about what goes on at these youth "rallies" or "retreats". I attended the next youth event as a parent/helper and watched as the hired speaker snarled, shocked and shamed the kids into "re-dedicating" their lives to Christ and getting "saved"
As a former Marine, I recognized many of the tactics I witnessed and was told about as being the same as the Marine Corps uses to get everybody on board together. To make a long story short, my daughter has not attended any church youth rallies since and has had no problems since. She is a very tender hearted loving girl and I think she was more susceptible to the practices of the manipulations. Lots of details left out, but I too would have liked to find the responsible ones...still feel guilty that I let my child endure that.
Thanks for your comments. Troy your story hits home with me. I have an article in the "Articles" section where the guy shows where this brain washing technique started from. It's the same technique the military uses and every other institutional organization out there, including church. It actually was discovered by a preacher. The guy who wrote the famous sermon, "Sinners in the hands of an angry God." I think his name was Jonathan Edwards. He is considered the author of brain washing. Even the CIA uses his book on "conversion."
Darren, I read 'Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God' a while back and went away thinking how wicked it sounded. I was thinking 'Is he talking about God or the Devil here?' Where did you learn about the CIA's used of his book on conversions, I'd like to check it out.
The article Darin mentions never states that the CIA uses a book by Edwards on conversion or brainwashing techniques. It says that Edwards and subsequent revivalist preachers tried to instill feelings of fear and guilt into the listeners in order to make them more susceptible to the message. It then states that over the years since then, many groups have intentionally used manipulation, power of suggestion, etc. to convert, control, whatever, masses of people. The article is interesting, however know that the author is from the start, hostile to any form of Christian conversion, being born again, etc. http://www.trans4mind.com/spiritual/brainwashing.htm
@Darin, if you have any links, articles, or anything besides this article that links Edwards to brainwashing or states that the CIA use Edwards' works as a manual or reference for brainwashing, mind control, interrogation or whatever, I'll stand corrected.
Chris I'm not saying that the CIA uses Edwards stuff TODAY. I'm saying that I've read in several places that groups like the CIA have used his words in the past when developing brain washing techniques. The article that I believe is in the "Articles" section here is not the only place I've heard this mentioned. I've read it in several places and heard it from several different people over the years. I do think the guy who wrote the article that I posted on this site is an atheist. I could be wrong about that but if he were, it doesn't bother me. It doesn't make his words to be less believable in my opinion. Supposedly Jonathan Edwards wrote the first book on "Conversion" (Christian term that the world considers to be the equivalent to brain washing). In Jonathan's mind he was trying to bring people to a decision for Christ. In the world's mind, he was manipulating people and getting them to do what he wanted.
I'm not sure it matters all that much whether it's true or not.
I only say it doesn't matter to me whether it's true or not because I've seen the Jonathan Edwards method of converting people used in churches all over the world. I grew up having it used on me every Sunday and Wednesday and in my opinion it's manipulative, cunning, fear based and down right evil. If it's not Emotional Molestation I don't know what is.
O my gosh!! This was so timely you guys.. so so timely... totally been processing some of this very stuff, and finding I am freaking pissed off at religion again because of how f'd up I am in this department. My daughter has had a couple of opportunities, like Syd did, to go to youth camps and youth group. I want to give her the freedom to choose for herself, but inside I am screaming, " No!!" The fear that is stuffed inside all the emotionalism and the manipulation at camps and youth group is outrageous! But being a ex-worship leader, the same same stuff is crammed into the times of worship. I feel like for the past 3 years, I have been in a state of detoxing from "experiencing" God in those ways. That crying, and goosebumps, and an emotional trip is equal to God moving has really really messed me up. So it's been a very interesting thing to realize that He really is surrounding me, but it's not in these climatic spaces...but it's in whispers and beauty and in the everyday.
It's absolutely..100% opposite of what I thought experiencing Him should be...everything I was raised to believe... Dar, you have talked about the example of a man only experiencing porn, and then when he gets married and experiences REAL sex, it's such a let down.... I think that is SUCH the perfect picture to this. Something that is as simple as my own walk with God, and how I hear Him and know Him has been tampered with inside me by man and religion.... and because of this outrageous emotional over the top definition I have been sold... it has made the simplicity and real life experience with Him seem like so much less...when it isn't. It is just supposed to flow and be so much a part of every day... it's such a process to work through to get to what is real. You can see it in all the definitions of other areas as well.. friendships, marriage, parenting, hearing the heart and making decisions,.... so many more areas that have been so tainted and polluted by religion that were meant
to be so natural. Thankyou to you and Aimz for sharing and talking about this area.. It really pressed on some stuff and validated what I had been working through.
Love you so much.. :)