May 30, 2009
Giving In the Wild
Darin, Brian and Robert discuss the tweaked mentality that believers have adopted from the IC concerning giving. Rediscovering the intimacy of giving is key in any believers life. Living in the wild is all about taking back the things that have been stolen by institutionalism and the subject of giving has created an immediate turn off in people’s minds. Recovering from this mindset sometimes takes years.
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Good podcast guys! This idea of 'giving' needs to be kicked around a little bit from time to time. Being free to give when and where we see the need is a far better blessing.
A note on OT tithing. Everyone brought food like grain, meat, etc...and it was basically a big potluck. Everyone gave and everyone ate. No one walked away hungry. Out of that they gave to the poor and whoever had need. No one had empty pockets or bellies. They had enough to care for the priests who were offering sacrifices FOR A LIVING and had no property or means of their own. Since we don't have priests sacrificing for us, there is no need for that. In the new testament they did the same kind of giving. They all got together and ate and anyone who had need was taken care of. That was it. The 10 percent was a tax paid to the temple. We pay the government tax. We don't have a temple tax anymore. So whether you WANT to go by OT or NT giving, the church STILL has it wrong!
"Those who don't get the message of love and grace make a religion out of it." Make do's and dont's out of it. That's precisely what religion has done to Christ's speach on the ten commandments. I've heard a teaching that Christ made 10 commandments even harder. Such a lie! He made them easier. He said, live out of love and you won't need them at all. He said, it's not about the works, it's about your heart. And instead of freedom people create even greater bondage. They check their thoughts for every tiny detail and are totally afraid they just met the new Jesus' requirements for breaking the ten commandments. Like Brian (tha bassy voice guy?) said - it's not about this at all. You are a child of God, everything belongs to you. Just love the people and love yourself and you're alright.
Would you make your child pay you 10% of the income they make?
I think this subject is the most difficult to break away from, because it is the most heavily prached. I believe in the heart of giving, to the church (the people), and that the world would be much better off if we gave to those in need. Believers would not need welfare or food stamps, they would be taken care of like it seems it was intended for all along. Malachi is being the main verse, states that the intent was for the store house to be full, not to pay the bills. having a full storehouse would have meant that those in need could come and receive. These are just my thoughts, and I am new to this but living in the new testament time, I think it's sad that the leaders have left Love behind to worship traditions and buildings.
Enjoyed the podcast. I like the part about giving from the heart as the need arises. Like you guys said, that is the blessing. Also appreciated the explaination about charging for things. I have often debated that one to myself.
I think you have forgotten the reason behind tithe in Leviticus if you add it all up Jews were tithing 30% the reason was the 13 tribes of Judah 12 with land and the Levites who were fully supported by the tithe(one of the major reasons we as smaller parts(pastor, church building) went back to 10%. And the second reason was Obedience, its easy to follow God daily with words and good intentions but I see tithe as more of a test of faith - do I obey God or do I not? It is my job to choose a pastor who is being faithful with what I give and he is accountable before God for how its spent - I am accountable before God for obeying GOD. I don't see that the Need to obey has changed in fact I see that greed is getting worse and its needed more now then ever.
Telisha, That temple system you talk about was done away with after the resurection. In New Testament times we are no longer supporting the old Levitical tempel system. The (Pastor, Church, building) was put together by the leader of Rome, NOT by God. Supporting that system is fine if you want to, but it's not scriptural. The people in the book of Acts just met in their homes and broke bread together. Also, you might be surprised to find that God isn't testing your faith quite as much as you might think. He doesn't test your obedience as much as you think either. He knows exactly where you are at all times and He just desires intimacy with you. Bottome line: if tithing is New Testament, we are still under law.
"It is my job to choose a pastor who is being faithful with what I give and he is accountable before God for how its spent."-----Just so you know Telisha, this statement is found nowhere in scriptire. This is stuff you've been taught but it's not biblical.
In that same turn are you also against circumcision? The only reason for it was obedience - Just because something is not reaffirmed in the New testament does not mean that they are no longer in place. Yes they met in homes - because they did not have big enough groups for churches. It is Obedience that you are walking away from - I fully support that our churches have mis used and abused and that they will be accountable for it however I don't see that the purpose has stopped nor should we throw it away just because it was laid out in black and white. However Jesus still when tested said Render to - Ceaser what is Ceasers and Unto God what is Gods- going back to the first fruits of Genius.
Circumcision is no longer a law like it was in the OT. The reason for circumcision was NOT for obedience. The reason for it was later described in the NT. It was circumcision of the heart.--They actually DID have enough people for a church in the NT times. They had 3000 in one day come to the faith. Tithing is no longer in place in the New Testament. Paul said we should not give under compulsion but we should give what WE have decided in our hearts to give. Keep in mind Telisha that the "church" is not the building with a pastor and staff. The "Church" is you and me. It's the people. Tithing is never talked about even once after the resurrection. The Caesar comment had nothing to do with the first fruits in Geniuses. If you want to study more on this I have 4 articles you can read.
Telisha I promise you I'm not making this stuff up. Did you know that the vast majority of theologians agree that tithing is not New Testament? There is simply no basis for it today when you understand it's purpose in OT times. Here is a link to the articles you can read if you are open to learning more. I believed just like you do for most of my life until I seriously opened my heart, sat down and studied the facts for myself. Just copy and paste this link into your browser and check it out. http://freebelievers.com/articles?page=4
I prefer to stick to a similar atheist argument I use. If I am right and God is real then I will go to heaven if an Atheist is right then I have lost nothing I have still been a better human and better person. From my study of the bible it is Obedience you can interpret how you wish if I am right I have lost nothing but you will have "stolen" from God. If I am wrong I will still have blessed many people and helped my church institution who work very hard to bring more people to God as well as bless those in their church. Choose as you will but I would rather be safe then sorry -- and I still question your interpretations I think you are reading it the way you wish to. Just as you think I am reading it the way I was taught to.
That's a very sad statement Telisha. It seems that it's just a crap-shoot for you. You're basically saying that you don't really know Him so you're playing it safe. You're telling me that you're not sure either way, but just in case, it's better to be safe than sorry. That is heart breaking because it doesn't have to be that way for you. The tithing issue is not about how you interpret it or how you read it because it's not in the New Testament for you to interpret or read. I gave you the articles. You can either look into this or close your mind and play it safe. Until you've actually studied both sides with an open mind, you really can't know either way. If you won't do that, that's up to you.
That is an easy way for you to see it I see it as very basic way of stating cold hard fact. I have deep faith in God and I don't doubt his word but I am not a NEW Testament only faith based christian I believe we have all 66 books for a reason and that we can not pick and choose which we follow. Tithing started as soon as they left the garden its a main principal just like God set up marriage in the garden before it was necessary. Tithe was the reason for the first murder I find it weird that you think its "out of date". I live in Utah where they love to say "that was God then - this is God now. God is the same yesterday, today and forever he does not change nor does his word. think what you want of me but you are very quick to judge with out getting a bigger picture.
Yes God hasn't changed from OT to NT. However, THINGS have changed. We have gone from being separate from God to being married to Him. If your husband only gave you 10% of his paycheck, I would think you have a troubled marriage. All NT examples of giving show the person giving 100% not 10%. It sounds like you're definately NOT going to read the articles and study both sides of this, so this is a waste of time. I will however include a list of the 613 OT laws so you can memorize them and live by them. Let me know how it works out for you:)--- http://freebelievers.com/article/the-law-all-613-commandments (In case you're wondering and I don't think you are, the OT's purpose was to point you towards Christ. Once you have Christ, it's all inside of you)
Yea, I still sacrifice goats and bulls. My neighbors hate me because of the stench and all the smoke, but I explain that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. I've also stoned both my children to death for disobeying me.
Sorry.......I couldn't resist. You should really read the articles Telisha.
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1299
Two commandments to Love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself. Obedience to God is a part of growing in maturity, bringing us closer to him. I would not charge my infant 10% or any money, but grown adult still living at home, I would charge rent & Utilities. There is a balance in God that needs to be remembered, He is both the Lamb, and the Lion. We are to die to ourselves daily, this is not because of fear or the law, but because we love Him above all else. Manipulation should not part people with money, but out of love for God is honorable. Becareful not to judge others yourself for wanting to tithe, to honor God. The early church did live in commune type arrangements, giving all of their worldly positions to the whole. Maybe that's what needs to happen?
Dawn, no one is judging anyone for wanting to honor God with tithing. The question is whether or not tithing is a New Testament principal that we are all supposed to follow.
Eric, I know you were being facetious but I think you’ve brought up an important point. The law was all or nothing. You couldn’t pick and choose which ones you wanted to follow and ignore the others. So, if you’re going to keep one law, you’re bound to keep them all. Darin says there are 613 OT laws. What stress and bondage that put people under so Jesus came and set us free from the law. Now, the only law we’re bound by is the law of love. Darin, thanks for taking the time to explain further. You’ve done an excellent job in making it clear.
I think people need to ask themselves a question, what saves you, is it what Jesus did alone or is it what Jesus did and what you do? I remember when someone asked me that about 7 years ago, I remember thinking at the time, well it would seem that what Jesus did alone would be the right answer but I honestly believed it was what Jesus did and what I would do is what saved me. It took a long time to find grace and rest in it. I wish you well Telisha, some people have to learn the hard way, I guess just as I did, you will too, and hopefully you won't give most of your money and life to the institution like I did, thankfully I still have the second half of my life to live in pure freedom in God's grace.
I don't see Telisha's comment to mean that the laws save you in any way. I see that in living out our Love for God, we do what we can to honor Him and to obey Him. Does this mean we should be condemned for not obeying, no. In learning and growing we see consequences to things like lying or murder. God will STILL LOVE you even if you do these things, but is it good to stop obeying these principles? No. All things are permissible, but they are not all beneficial. I don't care if you choose not to tithe, or to stop talking about it, the promise for doing it was blessings for the one who gave. I was blessed by giving, whether to a church or to individuals. I have chosen to give, do I mess up? YES, & His grace is sufficient. It’s not a question of Have to, but Want to.
Dawn, I think you’re confusing "giving" with "tithing." No one here is against giving. This entire podcast is proof of that. Tithing, however is an Old Testament law of PAYING. There’s an enormous difference! When a person believes that if they don't pay 10% to their institutional church, they’re "robing God," that's bondage no matter how you look at it. That takes the discussion WAY OUTSIDE the realm of giving. Giving is a great principal that we all love and agree with. The NT principals of community are all wonderful too but when they become LAW, it turns into Communism and it kills souls. Obedience only becomes an issue and topic in someone's life when they don't know and love the Father. When we know HIm, we become like Him. Obedience doesn’t even come into play.
The link you posted earlier just brings you back to this page. Here are the laws. http://freebelievers.com/article/the-law-all-613-commandments
Thanks Dawn. I'm not sure why it did that.
Telisha, Please don't take this the wrong way. You are right, you do have a responsibility before God, but it is to find out what the New Testament truth is. Your words reflect the fact that you do not understand sound New Testament theology. Please look throughout the entire book of acts or any of the letters written by the apostles and find me one scripture that says we are to pay 10% of our income to the local church. I would challange whoever taught you this to show you any New Testament examples of Tithing. Not trying to argue but there is a better way, Paul said not to let your giving be of nessesity or cumpulsion, tithing has no choice to be both of those. Tithing was for slaves not Sons
Telisha, God has not changed but I have. If I was in a room with my Son, my slave and my enemy and I spoke to each of them it would all be my word but it would be a different word to each of them based on the relationship I have with them. In the OT God was dealing with unregenrate Sons of Adam who were spirtually dead so he had to speak to them 1 way. Under the New Covenant God is dealing with a new creation race of Sons who are literally part of his family, we are his children now so his word to me is going to be different than his word to spiritually dead Israel under the Law. Again, not trying to argue, there was a time when I believed all this stuff. Please get very familiar with the book of Colossians.
Dogs learn how to obey, Children learn to Love
It's an interesting discussion here. You know you've heard Telisha's reasoning all your life in church and probably told them to yourself at one time, but when you see them in this context and in light of the podcast, it really only reveals the bottom line, fear. If you're giving because you're just afraid of getting it wrong and of some imaginary consequences, it all seems so silly, kind of like a child afraid of the dark or monsters in the closet. It doesn't reflect the heart of relationship or being a cheerful giver. Thanks Telisha for putting your thoughts out there. I hope you can search through and find the truth that sets you free.
Thank you guys for this show. I really appreciate your discussion. I also appreciate your further written discussion with Telisha.