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Jul 03, 2017

Grace Winning Over Hell

Another exciting conversation about the existance of hell and the power of grace. 

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    Campbell

    Holy crap, that was thought provoking! I was not going to listen because of this subject, but felt compelled because I respect what you both have to say. What you say makes sense, BUT I'm not able to give up hell yet. I accepted Christ based on hell. I'm not sure a love message would have worked for me. I've wondered "why me" and not someone else. What makes me able to accept him and not others. What about those people who are so badly damaged emotionally they can't hear that God loves them because of their pain. When I was in high school my friend lost both her parents and sister in a terrible accident. Their boat was in rough water and saw another boat struggling. The father raced to help. They all drowned while the other boat was okay. At church the mother and sister were given a Christian ceremony but ignored the father since he was unsaved. I've since realized that the father showed Christ's love and I believe he is in heaven also. Bald is beautiful baby!

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    Campbell

    PS, there is no way in hell I can tell anyone except my husband that I am listening to you talK about this subject.

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    antonreisig@gmail.com

    God The Father vs. The God Father

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    brettact2

    Excellent! Your in-depth analysis is exposing much about the mechanics of the human psych. I met Jesus thru a doctrinal purity group. They exposed the pagan roots history of the traditional hell, so I never had that experience. That view is the exact opposite of what God said He was avoiding when He kicked us out of the garden. He didn't want Adam & Eve to eat of the tree of life, & live forever, now that they were separated from Him. Paul mentions only God is immortal. Numerous verses contrast life & death: the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life thru Christ The church turns the word 'death' into a metaphor for separation from God to justify the eternal hell torment doctrine. But, if we are mortal, & need to receive eternal life, THEN THERE IS NO NEED FOR A HELL TO HANDLE THE UNSAVED! Instead, at the end of the kingdom age, there is a lake of fire, for those who works are not attuned to life, for their merciful torment-less eternal death. Revelation 20.

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    brettact2

    (Continue) Then there is a new heaven and earth, God personally comes to live on earth, wiping away all tears. This view aligns perfectly with our gracious Father's nature. And, contrary to the preterist view, this has not happened yet.

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    Charlie D

    Love these discussions. I have entertained the thought of no hell or no concept of hell as we have been taught in christianity. I can't think of any topic that is more relevant than this at this time. Please really explore and persue this, I think we really need to have this conversation! Not sure if I can post a link but I will try to leave a link below of an article that really goes deep on this and makes so much sense. Basically not saying "no hell" but that the wages of sin is physical death, and believers will be given the eat of the tree of life, and only they will have a permanent unceasing life, while unbelievers will not live on any further than this earth. No sadistic torture, just permanent effect of their acceptance of sin in place of God, permanently ceasing to exist. Very thought provoking. http://biblelight.net/hell.htm

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    Jim

    I have thought about this a lot too. I know what it says about free will but ultimately God chooses so what were saying is that God chooses probably about eight out of 10 people cannot believe the gospel and to be separated from him forever and eternal torment even though he could've caused them to believe but he chose not to. Sounds like a losing game plan to me. I mean most of the people I meet are not born again Christians so Our loving father made all these people and chooses to send them to hell forever even though Jesus died for them and I know they had the choice to believe in him but ultimately it was God's choice doesn't make any damn sense and makes God at worst torturere than Hitler

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    s phillips

    this is my take: Everyone is born innocent and full of promise.However,our life experiences determine our values, what we think of others and ourselves. We do not know what shaped that persons life that led them to do horrendous things.I believe in Heaven we will know and we will understand and we will have compassion. How do you throw an evil person into Hell when you see him as a child neglected and abused never knowing real love. I think we who know God's love will cry out for that person to experience God's love too. Grace will win.

  9. Gravatar
    s phillips

    this is my take: Everyone is born innocent and full of promise.However,our life experiences determine our values, what we think of others and ourselves. We do not know what shaped that persons life that led them to do horrendous things.I believe in Heaven we will know and we will understand and we will have compassion. How do you throw an evil person into Hell when you see him as a child neglected and abused never knowing real love. I think we who know God's love will cry out for that person to experience God's love too. Grace will win.

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    brettact2

    I think the modern view of God being all-knowing is off. In the garden God brings the animals to Adam to name, curious to see what he would call them. Then, with the flood, God repented that He made man, ie, He was surprised by the degree of evil we accomplished so quickly. In Job God declares His all-knowingness as knowing how everything works, overshadowing our limited understanding. Pastor-Philosopher Greg Boyd does an excellent job of showing how when you connect this with God being all-powerful and all-loving; we see a daily responsiveness to our personal needs. Most objections to this fit into the issue of choseness: If God previously chose before the event occurred, do we have precognition? We could instead say He has a plan, and knows He will need specific things to fit in certain categories, when their time comes. Interestingly, being chosen in the womb tends to support this: it's the 1st glimpse He has of what we can be.

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    David Joseph Brncik

    I believe.

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    Jac

    I haven't listened yet but I would love to hear you guys talk about free will versus Calvinism (opening a can of worms?). To me both are taught in the bible (although the free will camp still teaches we are born in our sinful condition because of Adam and Eve and have no choice but to sin, until it is doctrinally convenient to say we choose sin freely!) Why I bring this up is that hell is entwined in both doctrines, either to keep us in line or more maliciously as a place for those God didn't choose just to show his power and make the saved more thankful!

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    Jac

    An interesting read is Kenneth W Daniels "Why I Believed - Reflections of a Former Missionary" especially chapter 15 "Fear of Eternal Loss". The guy has become an athiest so many would not want to hear him (fear?). However it is a thought provoking read for both sides of the fence (or somewhere in between?)

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    Jac

    Very interesting conversation. I think I get what you are saying about age of law versus age of grace. However it worries me a bit because you say we chose law when actually most people under law were born that way (for generations and generations) with no Jesus to bring grace. Did God have a change of mind or just not get around to doing something about it sooner?

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    Teresa

    I was so pleased to hear this podcast. It seems to me that the only difference between me and an unbeliever is that I have seen and they have not. I can take no credit for having my eyes opened. It is my beleief that God who never changes and loved the world so much that he died for it will open everyones eyes in due course. If grace is grace then we can take no credit whatsoever for being able to believe, I have nothing, absolutely nothing that can earn even the tiniest part of Gods love but love me he does and if he loves me how can I think that he doesn't love everyone in the same way . . .Teresa x

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