Man Up
Darin and Robert talk about how the institutional church has contorted the lines of relationship between men and women to the point where it’s nearly impossible to have any productive or normal relationship with a member of the opposite sex. The teachings that suggest that men should only hang out with me and women should only be friends with women are stifling and oppressive. Living in the wild has with it a wonderful restoration of true relationship regardless of the sex of the person. Men have also been confused by institutional teachings on what “manhood” is all about. Modern day Christianity has feminized men and has taken away their strength and will to be themselves.
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There was pandemonium at the men's sewing circle tonight listening to this podcast. Tony dropped a stitch from the cute dog tapestry he has worked on so hard over the last 3 months, Bill slopped tea (earl grey) on the pink, fluffy cushion he's been slaving over as a present to his pastor who has a problem with hemorrhoids, Jim just burst into tears and we had to get his mum to pick him up and take him home and Albert was so distressed we had to form a circle around him and give him a big group hug. As convenor of the group this is a big disappointment to me and has probably set us back a good six months. I was right on the cusp of introducing a new book to the group - "Motor Bikes and the art of Flower Arranging".
Ian, you have me laughing to tears ;p
Darin, there is a hair dresser in the shop where I go. He is a married heterosexual believer. I heard him say one day that he just absolutely loves and gets complete joy in making a woman feel & look beautiful :) I loved it! He obviously LOVES women.
Those Australian guys are known throughout the world for being feminine. Thanks Ian. I have to say, I laughed at this one:-) You're quite the clever writer. Good stuff.
Good podcast guys. I will say there are many women I know including myself who do not learn in the church setting or care to sit for hours in church or school and would love to be outdoors always. All of us hated the church setting when we were a part of the gatherings. Especially when the McDreamy's were there being all girly. I have never seen such a lack of backbone or manliness except in the church settings.
Totaly down with what the idea that IC is derailing the male psyche.I don't feel so bad about working outside on my dad's almond orchard (believe me I am defintely in the dirt) now. All that being said I am still going to keep the door open when I talk with another man's wife!!!!
Sorry guys, but I gotta disagree about MMA. Two almost naked guys wrestling around all sweaty in very sexually-looking positions? Not really coming off as manly to me.
The 'taboo' in the IC of having friends of the opposite sex is very damaging for people like me. I have always had guy friends in addition to girls, my best friend growing up was a boy. When I got married, I pretty much cut off relationships with any men. It's been very lonely and depressing. I recently reconnected with several of my guy friends online and I feel like I've finally regained a piece of myself that was missing. But I still have to be careful, as my husband is still in that old mindset. He feels it's inappropriate. All these rules are such barriers to having real relationships with people.
If my wife told me that I couldn't have girlfriends I think I would die. I wouldn't have married her if she felt that way. She knew from the beginning that all my close friends were girls. I'm actually part woman. My mother was a woman.
When I got married, I was also of that mindset and I was in love. I supposed that from then on, my husband would be the only male friendship I needed.
This reminded me of John Eldridge's writings, and the same thought I had then is, who says these are just men's issues? I hated sitting through all the churchy stuff and pretty flowers too! I wanted to go out and actually DO something! I also appreciate what you said about boys being raised by Dad from the time they're 5. If only life were usually like that in today's society. Great topic, hope you guys will talk more on it.
Hey, I actually graduated from the Real Man ministry classe long ago. Teaching that Manhood and Christlikeness are the same. But i still dont get the part about how its manly to cuss or liter. I would have to raise my own personal standard higher then that. Anyway good luck with that.
Listening to "Man Up" I laughed all the way. Can't say where my journey "into the wild" started but years ago my life was CHANGED by Ed Cole's Maximized Manhood, but I had to keep my manhood down to 'fit in' to church. I spent 6 years as a boiler operator in the navy, played sports and survived one thing after another. I went to churches because "it's the right thing to do". I am not exaggerating when I say I hated it! The next book to impact me to be myself came later -John Eldridge's Wild at Heart. That started my journey out of churches. I became one of those guys that you described as a rebel, just by being myself. I can tell you many a story about sissy church men but won't. Came across your site through the God Journey which I came across after leaving churches. Love your pod-casts.
After all I have gone through, studied, learned, being fathered by God, I know personally I have craved strong male attention as far as mentoring and teaching went. It wasn't anything people told me, it was a sincere desire. I also remember thinking that when I was around females too often I felt out of place or I would jokingly say "I hit my estrogen limit today." From personal experience I know masculine attention is more important to my soul. So yeah, I gotta go down as disagreeing with this one.
FYI: the concept of men feeding from and being mentored exclusively by men does not have its origin in religious church settings. It ties back to most cultures that date back thousands of years. It dates back to masculine initiation rites and rituals. I will assert that when a man develops he needs mostly to feed from other men over women. Not saying that women are moot in a man's life. But I hold that only a man can show a man what it is to be a man for one simple reason, women aren't men! Once I got this in my head and chose real masculine relationships, everything changed for me. I became stronger, more confident and developed an edge to me. Before I was softer, more compliant, with less confidence when I kept mostly feminine friendships. I find this in many would be men around me.
David, I don't know that it is manly to cuss either, but the thought is many people assume by doing certain things that your witness is greater. It is your choice how you want to live. But if you do cuss? HMMMM!!!!! It is what it is. Many of you posted about books on this subject, I am waiting for the "Sunday Morning talk with God on the Golf Course" sermon series.
I always tell my wife that cussing is a man's language and she is too pretty to do that. I dunno. Once I learned I was a man, it felt freeing to let "taboo" words slip.
I met my beautiful bride through eharmony. I spent a lot of time reading profiles of women who claimed that they wanted a Godly man who would lead his family. I quickly learned that they had no idea what they were asking for. They didn't want a Godly man. They wanted a nice guy. They didn't want leadership. They wanted a guy who would make firm decisions as long as they agreed with it. I warned my bride very early in our relationship that our union would be attacked by family and friends because a true man of God is a disruptive force. We are now going through that battle and my bride is amazing. Many men fear demonstrating who they are because they believe that a woman will not be able to receive it. Just go for it and the right woman will be drawn to the life that flows out of you.
I honestly believe that the true man is an endangered species, and often not welcome in today's society. We are too wild. Too uncontrollable. We are a threat to all that is nice, safe, sterile, and predictable.
Just the other day I was talking with my fiancee about our old church, and how there seemed to be a very large percentage of metrosexual men there. I don't think I can find anywhere on earth a larger collection of men with overstyled hair and sequenced shirts. I remember looking at many of them and just thinking, "You fake little priss!" Seriously, some of them were as done up as their wives/girlfriends. And I always wondered why I never fit in with them in my t-shirt and jeans. Anyways, loved the podcast. :)
I loved the podcast! God never separates the body, why should we? We learn and grow from each others experiences. I am thankful for guy friends all thru out my life. It is good to get their advice and insight on the issues of life and all the other carp that comes our way. My best friend is a guy. Thanks for not being old school on this subject.