Jun 02, 2010
MIDWEEK - Redefining The Presence Of God
Darin and Amy Ramos have a great discussion about how many of us have to learn to redefine what the presence of God really is once we leave the organized religious system. Most of us have grown up being taught that when we feel emotional and get goose bumps that means God is present. This way of thinking is spread throughout many Christian circles in America. Living in the wild can be a difficult time for many new Free Believers who feel abandoned by God because they’re unable to drum up the same emotions they got from their past group meetings. Giving up “mood theology” and believing is an essential part of finding freedom in the wild.”
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Thank you so much for this podcast. It was almost like God had scripted your conversation just for me. I was an emtional junky, wanting the next "move" of God, running after the "prophets", the Benny Hinns, the gold teeth, dust, and jewels. The last time I was at one of these meetings God actually told me to sit down and just observe and He opened my eyes to all the emotionalism involved and how we were chasing after things and not Him. I just cried; that was the day I left and haven't been back since. I have been on a detox every since, and I would not change a thing. The withdrawls at times are hard, like feeling alone, abandoned by God etc, but I believe that is part of my recovery to make me whole, and I would not change a thing. God always comes through when I need a reminder that I am not alone, and today this was it.
I have to say if there is one thing that I have been having to work through it's this. Maybe it's being raised in the more charismatic movement of Christianity... but this whole "feeling the presence of God" area is so ingrained in me. Oy! I get kind of pissed off about it to be totally honest! Pissed off that I have it so in me. LOL! the combo of it being so ingrained in me, and being a ex-worship leader who lead worship "Spirit lead", I just had to give this whole area up... and asked God to just solidify it in me and bring me to where He stands on the whole area. I totally know what you are saying when it comes to each person's own revelation of realizing God never leaves us... He is always with us... His very Spirit is knit to my spirit. He is in me. I remember the exact time and day! I soooo hear you on this! He has to bring that revelation to your heart, it can't be taught... it has to be that personal "ah ha" moment with God. On the topic of worship, I think it's so true that...
the institutional mindset is to always go right to the whole music part of a service. But what I am starting to understand more and more is that worship is whatever thing/person that sits on the throne of your heart. And I LOVED what Amy said.. you can't cookie cut worship. It is going to look so different for everybody. It's also each individual's expression of worship to God. For many it's in photography and capturing the beauty of God thru their camera lense... for some it's nature and taking in God's creation... for some it's all about loving.... it's so different for so many people. We all connect so differently with Him in such different ways. To say it ONLY happens during a time of music is so crazy! Fantastic topic! Thankyou again for giving more to think about :) xxx
Ok.. one more thought :) my hub and I hadn't lead worship in 6 months, and just recently we were asked to lead for a conference type deal. Walking into it, at our first rehearsal with our team, it was THE most wildest experience. Almost like someone had turned a switch off inside me, when I was looking the other way. Very much felt like going backwards, and the internal stress that it caused both of us was enough to NOT do it ever again. I think when believers go back, it can cause a lot of confusion. I know it did in me. It does stroke something within that I think needs to die, and just be left for dead. Not to sound harsh, but it's is SO addictive. It reminded me of some addictions that I have walked away from in my own life. It feels the same way.. people are hooked to the "experience", and when we leave and have the real thing, it doesn't feel right. It is absolutely like what you said, Darin... there has to be a season of detox...of connecting to the REAL source,and cutting off
the experiential stuff. Going back for me was a good thing, in that I realized that I didn't need it anymore... and the whole internal stress of reopening things in myself that had been closed. Hope that makes sense... it's so unfortunate that we are taught that being close to God is all about the "ooey, gooey" stuff. It's so NOT about that... it couldn't be more opposite of Him and what is truly real.
Man I really needed to hear this one. Thanks Darin and Amy for discussing this topic. As a former worship leader I've pretty much set everything aside that I used to think was worship and experiencing His presence. It's been really difficult to do b/c I was so addicted to the emotion and feeling of it all. This podcast really helped me out a lot so thanks guys.
wow, I came here immediatly after listening because I so wanted to say thank you in a big way and I see all the other posts and realize.. it's huge for so many of us... I absolutely needed this pod cast... I can't say enough and I don't really know how to communicate how much your pod cast helped me from deep down.. maybe it's the musician type that tends to get so caught up with all this junk.. but either way.. I just want the truth to set me free and like you said Darin, it took a load off you.. this is how I'm feeling just after listening... honestly I'm not sure I have it yet.. but at least I'm seeing what seems to be so heavy and opressive is just this mindset that needs to be gone! thank a trillion billion god zillion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
okay, so I just read your post Amy and Daniel... just wanted to say... me too, me too... I was a worship leader and the last set I led.. I think I lost my mind.!.. I felt so rebellious inside.. and I didn't even know what and why .. I think it was something similiar you said Amy... "internal stress".. two questions come to mind and maybe you guys have the same questions or just some insight for me... Detox feels yucky... do you ever wonder how long? and after "detox".. do you think God will bring the music back? I know that me and Barbra Streisand and Josh Grobin seems to be enough... :) lol
Hi L.J.
I think for myself, I have come to a place where if I never ever "lead" worship again, I am ok with that. Maybe I have gone waaaay to the other side of, I don't want to pick it up or play another praise and worship song or do another retreat/conference/i.c. service EVER again. When I sit down at the piano these day... I just sing what's in my heart. My own heart song to God..whatever is in there, you know? It feels so yucky to sing other people's heart songs to God... I hear Him speak to my heart, " Sing to me what's in your heart." And that is what I have been doing. So the whole "detox" thing... I am just done.. D-O-N-E with anything that even looks, smells, tastes like the i.c. Maybe that is just where I am at, but I have totally just let is ALL go. I want God to resurrect and do whatever it is HE wants... and I don't think it's gonna look anything like what I have known. And part of me wonders if there has to be a death to the old first, in order to bring about the new.
I was thinking. Songs and ceremonies in the Kabbalah (which is Jewish mysticism and occult) religion are identical to much of what goes on in charismatic services.
I was also thinking that I could sing a heartfelt, emotional love song to Satan thanking him for killing babies and have the exact same feelings.
Hope that answers your question tho. I was at the same place of asking God, " When will this be over?" But it ended up being me striving and not resting in the whole process and resting in Him. It just felt so much better for me to just let it all go... and trusting that if there is something He wants to let me know, that He will do so. But until then, it's just me and Him. I sing my heart to Him. I play my heart to Him. I love music, and would love to be a part of something new...but am ok if it doesn't happen in this lifetime.
I am reading another MUST read book called "The Barbarian Way" by Erwin McManus. It also paints a very real, and often grizzly picture of real, hard, wild faith. He is one of those authors that has no qualms about saying there are no easy answers, life DOESN'T make sense and God doesn't feel good. this is another handbook for any free believer.
This oddly reminds me of the idolatry and emotionalism of the Israelites in the desert when Moses came down from Sinai. This feeling, this emotionalism is the golden calf they were worshipping. God provided the religion of the Torah to break them of this atrocious thing. they wouldn't have survived in the wild if He didn't. I think here the Old testament law does come into play.
Thanks Amy, your thoughts bring rest to my soul. I feel so free today. I was actually singing the song from that old show "Greatest American hero". o my goodness. you know the one? "believe it or not I'm walking on air I never thought I could be so freee" lol. anyway, I love all the you said and this part: "And part of me wonders if there has to be a death to the old first, in order to bring about the new".
seems to really ring in my heart... I have not picked up the guitar but once and just wasn't feeling it.. and same with piano.. I used to sing heart songs to God all the time.. I think this issue that Darin and Amy addressed is the reason for most of my heaviness... I mean.. I really feel so uplifted. I've come to this truth but I typically have to experience a few relapses before I really start living a revelation out with fullness,at least this has been my experience with myself.. thanks a billion.. it is so comforting having others to walk this journey with! David,love ur insite
I have been weaning myself off this emotional high thing for quite some time now, with the help of a little group of "free believers" that worship with no instruments and no hype, and simply sing to God out of our love for Him, not a need for some high. So does this mean that God wants us all to become Vulcans? No emotions, no highs or lows, just a totally rational, academic head knowledge walk with Him? I really don't think so; I believe that that kind of Christianity is called Gnosticism, and is not a true pursuit of the Lord. I have had some very emotional experiences with God, but they have, for the most part, come RIGHT OUT OF THE BLUE. No "mood music", or "mood lighting", or poignant chords, or any of that emotional prep, but simply a completely spontaneous realization in my spirit that God is real and that He loves me, and that everything is really going to be OK. To me that is the true test of an "experience with God", when it can come out of nowhere and with no expectation.
And yet, I find that I still enjoy being in worship services, not because I need some emotional high (though I must admit the feeling is kinda contagious), but I simply like being among God's people when they are praising Him. Nothing more complicated than that. And the fact that such events are infrequent for me kind of indicates that there is no "addiction" at work. If something I experience in life testifies of God's love and goodness, whether its a beautiful praise song, or a redwood tree, or a blue sky, or a stunning flower, or the presence of a lover, you better believe I feast on that like there's no tomorrow. I don't really even have to seek those things most times; if I'm just open to seeing them, without needing to get something from them, God is more than gracious enough to just send them my way. The blessings come when I least expect them; to me, that's being a "free believer".
I so know what you are saying Thomas... you know the difference in your heart. I've had about 2 or 3 very amazing "touches" from God and every time I was alone.. no hype, pressure or even trying to "get" a move of God.. like you said.. Out of the Blue.. I think Darin and Amiee said it best.. something like: "our emotions are just that, our emotions, not the presence of God".. I used to "equate" the actual emotions with the actual presence of God.. like they said on the pod cast.. you can get goose bumps from listening to all types of music and or other stirred up atmospheres.. we are human and have human responses.. to everything.. I really like how you put it Thomas.. "vulcans".. I'm a treky.. :)
Great podcast! I so agree - God does not need our worship to feel good or love us or to come into our meetings. It grates with me at our church when they say - "this is the time when we give something BACK to God"! And "can you feel His presence in here..." - I don't think I've ever really been able to relate to that.
But would you agree - that worship is good for US sometimes? It settles again in our hearts His Love for us, reminds us of it, gives us a place to enter into - away from the tedium and stress of every day life? And what's wrong with having a human emotional response to the wonderful Love of God that you know in your heart? Also being with others who are worshipping - as you mentioned, that feeling of human unity.
I didn't read all the comments but I like what Thomas and LJ said.
I don't know what you think of Joseph Prince - but my life changed after listening to him preach on focussing on God's love for us - which is stable and steady - and not on our love for Him, which is unsteady and always changing. As he pointed out we can go to conferences and get on a high and think it's our love for God, but by Wednesay or Thursday it's plummeting again, up and down on the chart all the time! So the difference is - knowing that God is Love and Love is that He loved us, and knowing that in our ordinary moments.
Tessie, Our lives were changed also by that message and began the process of us becoming free believers. I don't listen to Joseph Prince much anymore but the message of Dad's love for us and Grace was an amazing revelation that I am soooo thankful for.
I am having quite a conversation with Dad about this podcast.
Thank you Darin and Amy.
Thank you for this podcast. As a former praiseband member I would consistenly feel bad because I couldnt get people to "that" place. Occasionally it would happen, usually not, people would sing and worship but no emotional firestorm.
I remember everytime it didnt, I felt horrible. I thought i had let God down. Did I not read my bible enough, was I not prayed up enough, was I hiding some sin in my life that I had not confessed? It really sucked!
I would pray all the way to church for God to use me, and when people didnt respond the way I hoped, I felt worthless. Like God has given me a gift(singing) and I dont even know how to use it right.
My thoughts about this are obviously messed up, I have alot of sorting to do.
Thanks Brook, yes I also do not listen to JP any more, I've moved on from that towards becoming a more free believer. But I am also grateful - I was there at Hillsong and REALLY tired and fed up and all preached out, when he came on and gave that message and I could've sat up the entire night. Things have changed for me ever since, knowing that Love is God's Love, not me trying to conjure up love.
All the same, I love worship because it causes me to put aside all other things and concentrate on God and engage with Him. I don't think I've ever thought those emotions were evidence of His "presence", but my response to knowing He is near at all times.
I think for Free Believers we spend the first few years learning to walk on our new "Believe-Legs" without our "church-crutches." It's like going through rehabilitation after a stroke. Difficult but so worth it.
i don't understand why "feeling" emotionally connected to god is a bad thing? you have a history of "emotionalism" in your experience in the IC but what about biblechurchers, that have heard OUR entire IC experience, that emotions DO NOT matter, that you can even marry "feeling" dispassionately towards your future mate, because god only cares about obedience your personal happiness (which is a feeling right?) doesn't matter. in leaving the IC i feel connected to god, when i enjoy a sunset, when i laugh at a dumb movie, when music, a concert, a play or dance brings tears to my eyes, for me that is a sense of the spirit. It is not something i think of as needing to be chased,but being open to recognizing. Feeling the grass against your feet, the wind in your face. this is all getting a sense of god's presence to me. The times when i feel down, I don't think i am disconnected from god. i don't see it as a sign of a lack of something, it just is. why can't it be that at a U2 concert
at that moment when in japan they all lift their lighters they ARE in fact actually being touched by something that connects us beyond language? what you call emotionalism, in a sort of derogatory way, could perhaps be our hard wiring to sense the beauty truth and god
I agree i've been to my share of charismatic services, some of the stuff that goes on there is crapola, and just empty-headed, but i am not willing to throw out the baby with the bathwater on this one.
Love you guys.
Stephanie I'm not sure where you got the idea that we were saying "feeling" emotionally connected is a bad thing. We never said it or even implied it. There's nothing wrong at all with that. It becomes wrong when we teach ourselves to DEPEND on a feeling. That's what this podcast was about.
hi darren, i didn't speak precisely enough, sorry. i do understand that being emotionally connected is not something in general you look down on and the freebs are pro-connection. i also understand, not depending on our emotionally high feelings as THE indicator of the "presence of god". my trouble was with for example this midweek description. While goosebumps is not the defining evidence for the presence of god, it seemed on this podcast that the majority of these experiences are being dismissed as just emotionalism. And I am only wondering, is it JUST that or maybe we can be open to say, Yeah, this is god. Great okay. Not to chase it. But not to dismiss it as just psychology or biochemistry. I think maybe there is a spiritual aspect. I feel how we were allowed to experience god has been narrowly defined for us by the IC and my thought was the door seems to be wider not narrower. thanks for getting back to me.
Whether or not it is an actual spiritual experience taking place in these meetings for some people is really not something either of us can know for sure. I'm sure that many people are serious about an emotional worship service and are actually connecting with God. We're not trying to throw everything out and make the blanket statement that no one is connecting with God in these services because it's emotional. We're just making the point that the entire service is put together with emotionalism and the belief in emotionalism in mind. Yes, some can connect with him and some don't. The danger is still that people will expect an emotional reaction from themselves to validate God's presence. I have found through counseling hundreds of people that the majority of people in these services end up walking away feeling like they missed something. When I preach at churches and ask the people how many of them feel this way, almost every hand in the building goes up.
Hi Darin
This was my comment from above - I would like to know what your response is to what I've said here:
Great podcast! I so agree - God does not need our worship to feel good or love us or to come into our meetings. It grates with me at our church when they say - "this is the time when we give something BACK to God"! And "can you feel His presence in here..." - I don't think I've ever really been able to relate to that. But would you agree - that worship is good for US sometimes? It settles again in our hearts His Love for us, reminds us of it, gives us a place to enter into - away from the tedium and stress of every day life? And what's wrong with having a human emotional response to the wonderful Love of God that you know in your heart? Also being with others who are worshipping - as you mentioned, that feeling of human unity.
Tessie, I'm with you all the way on this. I've always thought that one of the most heart-breaking and shallow songs we sang at our church was, "I'm coming back to the heart of worship because it's all about YOU." That's really ugly if you ask me. I don't think there is anything AT ALL wrong with getting emotional during your worship time with Him. I often do. I think when people begin to identify God's very presence by that emotion, there is a serious problem. That's pretty much what we were attempting to cover in this podcast. I have two articles I've written on worship in the Blog section that you might enjoy (remember, I said YOU MIGHT:-) "Going for the Worship" and "What is Worship." They're both pretty radical but I think they give a great view of my opinion on what worship really is. Thanks Tessie.