Apr 14, 2010
MIDWEEK - The Lust of Sensationalism
Darin and Aimee talk about how sometimes we are baited back into the “performance christianity” world with super spiritual stories we hear from traveling evangelists. For some reason there is a part inside of all of us that desires a fleshy relationship with God rather than an intimate internal relationship. Walking away from modern day Churchianity is like putting down a pornography addiction. It continues to entice you and call you back. The excitement of what is promised in the Church sometimes outweighs the consistency of what is actually possible. Finding contentment in the real thing is what it’s all about in the end.
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Holy crap! And I was just thinking this morning about whether the Holy Spirit is in me because I've heard about the earth rending experiences of receiving the Holy Spirit and I don't have any of those, so is He really in me? And how do I know? And then I hear this podcast and I am simply floored! I don't want cheap theatrics in my relationship. I want authentic relationship. I've had enough cheap to last a lifetime, both in "religion" and out. I want real. And I saw a great YouTube on one of those charismatic faith-healers that you mentioned and was totally turned off by what I saw. I've seen some snake oil salesmen in my life and he took the cake! Wow, wow, wow. I am going to have to listen to this again to fully grasp it all. You guys articulate exactly what I can't but felt.
What a great topic! I've seen not only in the pentecostal system, though they seem to be much worse about it, this desire to reach almost a god state or something as if our human state isn't good enough or exciting enough. We completely fail to see that Jesus did not do away with our humanity, in fact, He embraced it and lived in it and was even resurrected in it. Now that I'm free, I'm learning to embrace my humanity and I'm learning that God is in me all the time enjoying with me my human life.
A wonderful, long awaited podcast that I feel picks-up from Darin's blog on "Spiritual Pornography". This podcast has helped me to come to terms with the sheer whackiness that we simply accept without question, in Pentecostal circles. It is sad but true that sensationalism is like a drug to the frustrated, insecure and gullible Christian who is seeking more in life.
I felt both intrigued and aghast at the subtle techniques of manipulation used either intentionally or intentionality in the church to manipulate people.
I particularly like the whacky vision analogy Darin provided of 12 midgets on unicycles! Hilarious, and yet, informative.
I'm going to look for that book by Jonathan Edwards that Darin mentioned!
I remember the "mountain top" experiences ranted about in the IC's. we would go on some weekend retreat in the woods, sing songs, be told we aren't good enough men and to do better, get all emotional, and then come down to the city ready to change the world and be super males. It all went away in a couple of weeks.
Darin. So I have a question. I remember a few months ago you had a podcast about people's individual spiritual experiences with God "manifesting" himself in services. How can we tell in a fellow believer's life if it really is God or if it is all this emotional manipulation? I know that for me, my experiences, visions, etc...are of God as they are unprovoked by anything in my environment and can come on me without warning in the middle of my day. Anyhow, just curious as to the flip side of the argument you posed a few months ago.
Well Darin as you know by now I was a Praise and Worship leader for 14 years, it has been hard, now I feel like a nothing as I go through a divorce, and I have been driven to isolation. It has been VERY hard living by faith without signs and wonders, or the prophetic especially!!!!! I had grown very dependent on it. So I have been lost for a long time, raw faith, believing He loves me He's there when I have nothing to go on, no signs or wonders and no title or association or church, nothing, me and God!!!! I just read "SO you don't want to go to church anymore" it was so helpful! I cried when it ended!!! My church had men in who filled cavities with gold fillings, I saw people crawling on the floor looking for gold dust!!!! When I questioned I was outed, blackened and to this day rejected
This is such an excellent podcast that everyone needs to hear. I absolutely agree with eveything you talked about. Since I left the institution, I finally understand what real freedom feels like. I don't want any more sensationalism at all. I don't desire it at all. I want what is real and genuine...not something that I always have to strive after for another emotional experience in order to know God is with me. I don't want to depend on spiritual highs in my life. I am so content now, I just want to live my life.....a normal life, not one that is so focused on church life, programs...religious gatherings. I have had my fill and don't want it anymore in a regular institutional weekly meetings kind of way. I want a normal life where Jesus can just be Himself through me.
Somehow the authentic stuff in life is simply there. How unexciting that can seem, and yet how destructive is the life lived on spiritual pseudo-Adrenalin.
Darins friends asked why we tend to want to live in the Moses experience and maybe Paul talked about it in one of his letters that we were never meant to read :) Amy talked about being married to God already and I have never understood that this is true of us yet, I always thought we were engaged and waiting for Him to come back and take us to the wedding in His Father's house. So if this thinking is out of whack I'd appreciate someone explaining the truth to me.
It is kind of interesting that porn is so much more exciting and satisfying because it is a very personal and individual affair. Denial runs deep indeed for all our addictions. An orgy is one form of porn and being alone in your room is another.
I want to thank you all for doing these pod casts and doing them often. You guys sometime mention how tired you are and I know it takes time and effort after busy days. But I feast on them and I look almost daily for new ones. And this one...OMG. This one really made me think. I did some research on this and it made me feel vunerable. I am now more aware of how suspectible we all are to manulipulation and even brainwashing and how so many knowingly and unknowingly try to exploit us through it. Some even believe that the tremelo in their "preacher voices" is the anointing! Sad and scary. In the IC we could always pack it out when we had a "big" name. I now see it as looking for a sensational experience rather than an attempt at loving God and others.
Thanks for doing this, I keep learning.
Crap, if thats true I want all my money back from those offerings when I felt "moved" to give!
David I'm not sure we have to tell who's experience was authentic and whose wasn't. We are only required to make that decision about our own experience. I think the difference between this conversation that the one you're speaking of is that this is a group phenomenon and the other is a personal experience that happened individually. When someone makes claims about what happened in a group meeting they are without question feeding you a line of bull because they couldn't possibly know what really happened in individuals. When a friend of yours tell you something that happened in their own heart it's a different story.
For the longest while I avoided attending charismatic churches because of the history of mental illness in my family. I could never trust that someone's claims of superspirituality wasn't just their mental illness in religious garb. As well, I attended Oral Roberts University, and although I had a great educational experience, I saw how Oral used marketing and emotional blackmail to solicit for money. When I did attend a charismatic church for several months to see if I was missing something, I found that there were grandiose claims that I was never able to witness for myself. I'm OK letting go of the need to have a superspirituality, but I feel that Jesus even set us up to have unrealistic expectations (ie: moving mountains). It seems like there are 2 different Christs in the gospels.
So I believe there are fraudulent ministries, etc. and I can handle that...I totally respect the Jesus who came to expose and save us from religion. But I don't get the disconnect between what kind of disciple He says we can be and what the actual reality is... Probably not making myself clear. But I am having trouble reading the bible because it's hard reading about miracles that seemed to only happen to someone else, somewhere else at some other time. I know it's not the measure of Jesus being real in my life. I don't want to chase after some spiritual carrot but then what do I believe? There are sick and crippled people that come into my work place every day. Medicine can't do any thing for them any more. I get that the power of God is love but I don't know what to pray for anymore.
Yea I understand that Faith.
Faith I'm with you there too. I want to share the Good News with anyone who will stand still for more than 5 minutes (lol) and I take every opportunity I get to share God's love, I couldnt NOT do.. But what about those who are in desperate, desperate situations that not only require you to get alongside them (I dont say that lightly cos its not easy sometimes) and give practical help, but those that need basically a miracle? I want to see miracles! Have they really stopped? If not why don't I see them? See I used to at this point start wondering about my "spirituality" ie it wasnt enough! But now I know freedom and that its not about me, I thought I'd see more things happen but I still feel like 'is this it', is this the best I (with Almighty God and His anointing in me) can do?? :/
I was in one of those hype churches.....I was right up front during worship...dancing...crying banner waving etc. for years. Loved it!! Then I felt God tell me to watch, not go up front not get all intertwined in what was going on just observe...a whole year. What I came away with after that year was just what you said in this podcast....can't tell you how many times RJ preached in our church....how many trips to NCarolina for conferences etc. So glad to be free and your right there is something nagging inside the whole time saying something just isn't right....this isn't for real....
You are right about it not just being sensational pentacostal churches. Often other churches sort of look at what "they have got" jealously too and try to mimic some things without necessarily the same teachings. A great podcast. (One evangelist I know denigrates Christians who get around with long faces but loves to see people crying and weeping in repentance and whatever in his meetings - go figure!)
so, the Holy Spirit led you to say BS?
Yah, I am wrong, huh?
You two subtlely arrogant people talk a whole lot of general lies about the "IC". Where do you think the Holy Spirit has been for the last 2000 years? I have experienced the over-flowing of the Holy Spirit in a AG Church. Your "flesh" experience of Christ is your own delusion.
I am amazed you fool some.
disgusting
Hi Kimba, I'm not fooled by anyone..not at this point in my life. I'm a nurse trained to have objective observations. Some of my observations or lack of them just have me asking questions. Yes I experienced a couple of episodes of being drunk in the spirit. But to what purpose? To chase after more like a drug addict? I also saw a woman I know lie on the floor under the power of the spirit, I think, for a whole service. I could hear her lungs sounding congested everytime she breathed. She was seeking healing...when she roused she was still sounding very congested and coughing. Within weeks she was in ICU...and she hadn't been avoiding medical help either. What do I make of all of this? I hugged a dying friend and prayed in faith. She still died. Kimba, why can't I ask questions?
Darin, I was listening to kieth moore today and thought man how did i get trapped into these things? He was driving home his tithing message and the usual common "rags to riches" story and then something inside me said wow this man is hurting.you can hear the pain in his message.It was crying out -Ive got to be right ,ive got to be perfect.Thank God for your ministry.Thank God im set free from years and years of the "Faith messages"Thank God for freedom in Christ to be out of the institutioal monstrosities.I just wish i never graduated from the lieing Rhema bible training center.It was all a waste of time.It was all pride and vain glory. It was all for nothing- but enhanced legalistic behaviors . It was just behavior modification.Anyway keep preaching the truth brother.God bless Davidl
Did the Holy Spirit lead you to post under a female name in an effort to conceal your identity "Kimba" or do you masquerade as a woman with all your postings?
Faith, I think you've nailed it with your statement, "Yes I experienced a couple of episodes of being drunk in the spirit. But to what purpose? To chase after more like a drug addict?"
We see these amazing things in the church, but we never stop to consider the motive and purpose of it all; how it applies to ourselves, personally.
I truly believe in the signs and wonders performed by the likes of Rienhard Bonke. But the purpose is to confirm the truth of the Gospel to those who don't yet believe.
I am beginning to rethink this whole thing in the light of Darin's observations of "sheep" and "goats" in the church.
But outside of that signs and wonders have become a means of stimulating bored, frustrated, insecure Christians - leaving them to derive over-the-top expectations from it all.
I can understand where people like Kimba are coming from - I remember being in a similar place, spiritually speaking. Although you're not aware of it at the time, you cannot stand the thought of this sensationalism being unrealistic and irrelevant. It is as if all of your hopes are pinned on a lifestyle that's full of miracles; your want to feel extra-special and you feel as if the only way to get people to believe and respect you, is if God anoints you to achieve incredible things, similar to Daniel and Joseph.
But what this path does is that it distracts you away from enjoying the here-and-now, the beauty and pleasure of the simple things of everyday life.
You believe that God cannot love the real you with all of your creases and imperfections.
This leads to a life of dissatisfaction.
I remember when I went to AOG churches and others like them I always had this incomplete feeling like I was always missing something. But for some reason, God never moved in the way I wanted Him to in those services. Yes I did the motions, danced like an idiot, waved my hands, shouted hallelujah and babbled in what passed for tongues. But it all felt empty. I find it interesting that I feel the Holy Spirit stronger and more potent in my life now than I ever did in the IC. God wanted to get me away from all of that and alone. It was the alonness of the wilderness journey that sharpened my spirit to receive from him as my mind was dulled and jaded by the conditioning in the IC>
I read parts of "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God", I had to put it down, most depressing thing I've read in my life.
"Churchianity" I love it! It totally describes it. I remember sitting in the church & wondered why most preachers, it doesn't matter where they come from all sounded like southerners. The last time I went to "Big Church" (Darin you know what i mean by that) I was dragged there by my friend & the whole time I was embarrassed to be there. I remember thinking how years ago i sat there & swallowed all the snake oil they were selling! I watched the praise team spoon-feed everyone telling them when to lift their hands, when to give thanks, when to praise etc. All the while the camera was sweeping around the room getting close-ups of weeping people to put up on the mega-tron-screens. It hurt me to think that long ago & far away I thought that was normal..EGADS! I sat there giggling & embarrassed
Vincenzo, I agree. A terrible portrayal of God's character and personality. And yet I have a work colleague who is a full-on Calvinist and the ideas in the book sadly still have currency.
Kimba, I would encourage you to quietly and with empathy listen to people's experiences. Not everyone has a troubling history with the IC but many do. Take time out to travel around and just listen. Not everything is just about your or just about my experiences. It sounds like you have had a positive experience but many have not. That's a fact my friend and not the posturings of a bunch of bitter and disenfranchised people.
I have a question. Are wolves in 'sheeps' clothing different from goats? I don't think any of what goes on in the way of weird christianity is any thing new, it has been going on since Paul said he was nearing his end and the freaks were going to come and teach different things and lead the people away from the sure hope in Christ. The tricky thing is leading them back to trust in Christ alone - lol! I know Jonathan Edwards book gets a bad rap because it is often used to 'guilt' trip people into the kingdom rather than showing sinners the true condition of their hearts - even the religious sinners. God help us all.
P.S - It is also a long time since I read Jonathan Edwards book so I forget how he even expresses what I can also find in the Bible. God gets angry at sin - it is part of His Loving Character - to deny that seems to be futile to me. The bible we don't like to read so much anymore says that although God is angry at sin He made a way for the 'ungodly' to be justified. Ungodly is another word as rare as sinner these days. Politically correctly we could tell unbelievers they are God challenged - hahaha! I know once we become saints we don't want to remember who we were and cannot see the point of remembering yet while we walk in our saintliness there are many who are still 'ungodly' and need the free justification of God. Now I sound like Calvin I will rack off :)
Oops! Didn't mean to double post above. Think of it as a digital stutter.
Hard to love a God like this: "It is everlasting wrath. It would be dreadful to suffer this fierceness and wrath of Almighty God one moment; but you must suffer it to all eternity. There will be no end to this exquisite horrible misery. When you look forward, you shall see a long for ever, a boundless duration before you, which will swallow up your thoughts, and amaze your soul; and you will absolutely despair of ever having any deliverance, any end, any mitigation, any rest at all. You will know certainly that you must wear out long ages, millions of millions of ages, in wrestling and conflicting with this almighty merciless vengeance; and then when you have so done, when so many ages have actually been spent by you in this manner, you will know that all is but a point to what remains."
Darrin, you wouldn't happen to know where Frank Viola got his info about Edward's book on how to convert people would you?
I didn't get that information from Frank. I found it on the internet in an article I read about 5 years ago.
DH, you labeled You and Aimee's banter by inspiration of the... Holy Spirit???... Not. lol
;-D. BS, BS, BS, BS, BS, BS, BS. Seven would be complete. You and AMD's generalizations of the "IC" are a joke. Where do you think the Holy Spirit has been for the last 2000 years? Keep profitting off the hurt. You will fool some.
PVS
Darin the religious are angry in this forum.For the trapped ones who think the Holy Spirit is in those buildings i got news for you.The Spirit of God lives within us and not in a dead building or in dead legalists who troll in those buildings.The Holy Spirit is in us and God is love.Im not saying this to put anyone down but to set them free.I myself have been set free through Jesus. God used Steve mcveys ministries and others like Darins to shut the mouth of lies in my life.Im not bitter im free in Him and He in me.You cannot make spiritual progress or recieve Gods blessings by what you do.the kingdom of God is in us - Christ in you the hope of Glory.Dont be fooled ! I wont be fooled again! God richly bless You Darin,Amy and Aimee - your are all so precious to Jesus.Love you in Him David
Who is this PVS or Kimba person? Seems bent on a personal attack against Darin and Aimee. Not much for sincere discussion though. Kinda boring.
Faith PVS and Kimba is a guy named Paul who is Aimees official stalker. He lies when he posts stuff because he's a coward. I let him post here so everyone will be reminded of the bondage they came from. It's a nice reminder of how blind we used to be. We have been waiting patiently for him to show up again so we can charge him with internet stalking. This evidence of his return is just the ticket we needed. Thanks Paul. You're going to be contacted shortly. Make sure you answer your phone.
Ian - was that a sample from the Angry God toward Sinners book? I was just wondering if he was describing what he believed eternal darkness will be like. Is that called preaching the get out of hell free card? Not like Jesus doesn't offer us a free gift and all - lol! I'm going, going, gone...nah! I might seek out that book and see if he offers Christ alone as the only remedy and if he talks about it being because God loved so much. Can't diss a book I haven't read in like eleven years.
This was a hard hard podcast for me... I am having a hard time just shooting down all the experiences that I have had with Abba, and catogorizing them as an emotional experience because of the lighting and music volume. Gonna have to really chew on that for a while. I think because I have felt the presence of God, especially in worship, and I have also partnered with the Holy Spirit in these times as a worship leader, it's hard to just say that it wasn't genuine. Now, I have TOTALLY been in services where it was totally hyped up emotionalism. But then, I have also been in and apart times where He is totally glorified and is touching people, healing people, and so very present in the midst. I don't know. I don't think I can throw that out as just emotionalism and manipulation thing. Ugh!
Amy no one is making an all conclusive statement that it's pure emotionalism every single time. You have to decide if what you experienced was authentic or emotionalism. We all have to decide for ourselves in every circumstance. The key is, do you now associate an "experience with God" with crying and weeping in an emotional frenzy or can you have experiences with dry eyes and a sane mind? I'm not asking you to throw out anything that you feel was authentic.
This is the best podcast yet! It raised my hairs!!! Thank you so much for discussing this subject again. I don't stop to be amazed at how seriously devastating this wicked manipulation affected me and I came from a denominational background. One main focus in most of the sermons I attended at this church was to bad-mouth other denominations (Catholic, etc.)and he knew what buttons to push to keep people attending his. That was by far the scariest time of my life...
I think the real danger in emotionalism is that it implants the idea that getting emotional is the equivalent to a move of God. If a person doesn't come forward and cry their eyes out, they leave feeling like they missed God. I think this is a danger in every aspect of Christianity. Even worship. We have taught people that worship is always singing. Most Christians can't think past that. Yes - every worship leader in the world will openly tell you that worship is a lifestyle and not just a song service but strangely every worship leader is a musician. Go figure:-) When someone says they are a worship leader we just expect that they're a musician. When someone said they had a huge moment with God, we just expect that it involved tears and an alter call. That's not good.
I hear ya on the churches that really crank on the emotional tones and inflections in your voice. I came from a more grace based, not emotional church. And for that I am so grateful... however, still there was alot of soft religion there..still encouraging people to tithe and all that stuff. I agree that just because someone doesn't break down and start balling, that doesn't mean God isn't moving in them and working in them. I think it's just me. The Father working out the " all or nothing" mentality. When in fact it's just taking each circumstance, one at a time, and weighing it out with Him. My true heart to be real and authentic. But I def. have seen in worship where people are seeking the experience versus the person of God. Thanks for the feedback. :)
Ian,
That quote from Sinners is the reason I lost interest in reading it further. It's almost as though Edwards was saying, "Just when you think the pain is over, it's only the beginning of the things God is going to do to you for eternity." Now I do believe that God judges sin and hell is quite real, however, the God Edwards is describing is cold and sadistic like the devil himself. It's really said that tripe like this is held up as a "classic" in Christian literature.
This podcast has sure struck a nerve with me...I keep coming back to some of the thoughts expressed in it. When I was at ORU, I felt that the culture of the world was strongly influencing Christianity. Sensationalism sells, "bigger is better", affluence is the measure of success, marketing tools used by ministries, glamour and glitz, emotional drama played out like a soap opera...You're right Darin...some so-called spirituality is very worldly and does arouse the flesh in us.
Reading through some of the comments I am left with the feeling that there are some people who still equate a "move of God" to something that happened in an institutional church environment. I'm willing to say at this moment, "Who knows and who cares whether that really was God." What seems relevant to me at this stage is this: what relevance does it have to your everyday life outside of the church building? Do these experiences in the church have any practical and positive impact on your life outside of the four walls of the church? How do you apply what happens in the church, to what you do in real life? Having experiences in church is one thing - living your own life is another.
I love the picture of Billy Burke. I went to one of his crusades here in Pittsburgh and he's every bit as flamboyant as this picture. The white suit is the best! ;)
Some time before, I needed to buy a good house for my business but I did not have enough money and couldn't purchase something. Thank heaven my sister suggested to try to take the loan at reliable creditors. Hence, I did so and was satisfied with my small business loan.