Feb 13, 2010
Misconceptions About The Bible part 3
Darin and Robert enter into a discussion about Christians and the modern day teachings on the bible. This is an open discussion with no rules. Anything can be asked and all opinions and feelings about the topic are be voiced unashamedly. This is perhaps one of the most open and radical “Into the Wild” shows that’s been recorded to date. We encourage you to send this to your friends who are struggling with the same questions. Many Christians in our world today and severely oppressed by the churches teachings on the bible’s role in their life. This is perhaps the most abused and abusive topic in the Christian world today.
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Hi Robert, I think the verse you are after is Daniel 11:32 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=daniel%2011:32&version=AMP
I also ploughed my way through the Final Quest and ended up tossing it in the trash. Just goes to illustrate your point - different folks take away different messages. It doesn't mean that we have to put each other down - it is a just normal part of life and we can still value each other. I'm finding that I have an understanding that much of what is written in the scriptures is just an account of poeple working out their faith also - just as I am. The trouble is that point of view puts me in the camp of the heretics. C'est la vie.
Well, very interesting podcast, sort of takes me back to the "Toronto Blessing" .Here is the problem with extra biblical revelation.Some people have all sorts of strange visions and voices that they believe came from God.Example,I watched as Tod Bentley a paster at lakeland, kicked some poor guy in the stomach who had cancer, in the name of God.This guys mentor was none other than Rick Joyner!What concerns me is that people have a hard time balancing the word and the spirit.Without the word,some people act like their on some LSD trip.The other side is dry boring religion that loves to whack others, think they work for the mob :)The word of God is our guide, thats how we discern the spirits.
Darin, I've been loving these latest podcasts. Very good stuff. Perfect timing since I've been doing allot of thinking about this very issue for a while now. Thanks!!!!
Graham don't fool yourself. Even people who claim to follow the Bible get off on weird tangents and do crazy whacked out things. In fact, almost every major heresy in Christianity that came in the last two thousand years entered through churches that believed in the bible. Most of whom believed in the "no new revelation" concept. The point is that you or I didn't NEED scripture to tell us that Todd Bentley was off his rocker.
I agree Darin. Wierd denominations have formed that are based on taking scriptures out of context,like snake handling and drinking poison.The hitting in the stomach thing is something that has been around awhile. Many "faith' teachers have practiced this, including Kenneth Copeland and Kenneth Hagin.I believe Smith Wigglesworth who considered himself an "apostle of faith" may have started this practice.Wigglesworth was considered an aggresive holy man of faith and a violet man taking ground from the devil by force. Whatever, I'm not feeling the love if someone has to hit me in stomach to get healed.
The statement "the word of God is our guide, that's how we discern the spirits" is something I heard for 40 years in the IC. What does that mean anyway?
I think when it comes to (cont'd)
(cont'd)discernment wheter it is the bible , spirits, or extra biblical revelation the only discernment we need is God is love.
When i say guide i mean the word is a light that keeps me from getting tangled up in the many webs that are in this world.There are so many religions, doctrinal views,voices etc.. Without the word lighting my path i would be open to anything.Without the word how would you have known the God is love?
really appreciated this pod cast... I think because it's all about relationship with a real "person"... this is so different for each one of us,.. so intimate and individual.
Actually Graham, I knew that God was love even before I found it written in the bible. The light that lights MY path is in fact, love. All of the law and the prophets (that's the bible) hang on this one thing. If you never ever read the bible in your life, but just lived through a heart of love, you would find yourself fulfilling all of the law and the prophets. Even little children do this naturally. Don't get me wrong. The bible is great for checking yourself and making sure that you are in fact living through love. Many people's view of love is so distorted that they need the bible on a daily basis to define love in each situation. In that respect we are blessed to have it. Most people fade in and out of love, so having the bible can really help people to find consistency.
I've been listening to a lot of Wayne Jacobson.. and one verse He reminded me of made since of all my experiences and Life with Jesus. (John 13:34-35) the truth that is so vibrant here is that we only Love based on How we have been loved by Him... this is nothing you can read about or even work on. We experience the Love from God personally. Just like any other real relationship. He doesn't DEMAND Love or Even Trust.. we grow in this as we know HIm. Living the Gospel means we live in his love. We come to know the Father's love for us and then sharing that love with him, and with others he puts in our path.
to know him and be involved in a meaningful relationship with him that transforms you to love as he loved.
I think he just wants us not to be afraid of Him.
Darin,to cut to the chase here, please tell me what you believe about Jesus.
just to mess with everyone here... Graham why does this matter what Darin believes... ???
WOW. that was out of the blue. I'd really love to know what you suspect I believe about Jesus since this question has absolutely NOTHING to do with this podcast or the present discussion. Are you expecting me to say that I believe Jesus was a good man, perhaps even a prophet but not really the Son of God?
Sorry for the curve ball.The reason for my asking you about Jesus was based upon your view of the bible.Darin,there seems to be a common thread both here and on the regular blogs that the bible is just another good history book and that it is not to be taken too literally or seriously.Seems like the pendulum always swings from one extreme to to other.Without the word of God, we would be like chaff blowing in the wind, following every new doctrine that tickled our ears. Lastly, i would like to respond to the comment you made about children.When a child comes into this world they are born into sin just like the rest of us.If children loved naturally as you imply, than why do we have to teach them right from wrong or to share with others, a child without loving discipline is a terror.
Graham, I don't think you are listening mate. I will reiterate what has been said previously that many of the wacked out beliefs have originated from folks in traditional churches who believe in the Bible. Does this mean that the Bible is inconsequential? Of course not - but seeing as how God has given us regenerated / new hearts the primary way of relating to God and others is through love. It's not hard to understand hence Darin's comment that a kid can even live in this way. Don't make that mistake that we are all a bunch of neophytes here - each of us has a story and some of us have decades of involvement with the traditional view of primarily accessing a relationship with God through the scriptures. I for one started this journey some 40 odd years ago in a fundamentalist
denomination (Brethren) in which the Bible was given pre-eminent place. It didn't stop all of the church splits over doctrinal points though. How about this mate - using just a bit of logic? There are some 38,000 different Christian denominations and I bet a fair proportion of those are segregated on the basis of doctrine - interpretations of the Bible. Which one(s) are right? Just thinking about that poor pendulum swinging out of control or the folks choking on chaff and the majority of them sourced in biblical interpretation. It's gotta make you think you think.
It is true that God is love, and yes it fulfills all the laws, but when you just say that its all about love, what do you mean?In the 60s it was all about love and peace where did that take society?Love is a very broad term, and the world uses it all the time, but the worlds love is very different from agape love.Also the term God is used in a broad sense both here and on the blogs. There is very little talk about Jesus, that alone is of great concern. Finally,if you read through most of the blogs, the bibles authority is being challenged and sin is minimized, which doesn't surprise me, for it was Satan that first challenged Gods word in the garden!
Graham you can't compare Christ's call to love one another to the 1960 hippy view of love. That's silly. It has nothing to do with truth. Jesus said, "You diligently study[a] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life." This is what is being discussed. The scriptures point to Christ. Today's christian is taught that the scriptures are equal with Christ. NOT TRUE. We even refer to the bible as the "Word." Jesus is the Word, not the bible. It interesting that you assume I don't believe in the deity of Christ because I don't worship my bible. Your concerns ARE the problem. They're upside-down from what the bible actually says.
I've really enjoyed these podcasts Darin. You guys have tackled a big issue in believers lives around the world. There is such a huge difference between knowing Him versus knowing the bible. Since I've began to know Him outside of my bible its taken a completely different shape and form in my life. Instead of reading about who He is and how He relates to us I experience it in my day to day life. Those revelations are more valuable and real to me than everything that I've read ABOUT Him in the 10 years that I've been a christian. For me it really brings to life that whole verse about tasting and seeing that the Lord is good. It doesn't say to read scripture and see that He is good, but to taste and see that He is good. To live life! :)
For me when I first read your blogs on the bible I had a big problem with what you were saying, but that was because I didn't understand that my heart was good and that I could actually trust it. For me, that is what changed everything. Knowing that His law is written on my heart and that I can rely and trust in that literally turned the tables on everything I had previously learned. It gave me a confidence that I had never experienced, even after years of studying the bible and doctrine. Suddenly all the doubts and fears I had about being deceived or led astray left; I had confidence knowing that He would never lead me down a path that would destroy me...because my heart is good. :)
Sorry for the multiple comments :)I heard someone talking about Psalm 27 where David is saying that the one thing he desires is to dwell in the house of the Lord for all his days, to behold His beauty and meditate in His temple.While they were talking about it something clicked. I realized that that David was longing and desiring what we are able to experience and live right now! We are the temple! He can't get any closer to us!!:) The dudes in the OT longed and cried out for what we are now able to have. All they had back then was the law written on stone...it wasn't apart of them. Now God has made it so intimate and close to us. I think if David were alive today he'd look at a lot of Christians today and be perplexed because we don't understand what a gift we have. Why go backwards?
I love your comments Daniel and your heart! and your smilely faces... :)
Darin,where in the world do you get the idea that i worship the bible?In all the years from early Sunday school to now i have never met anyone who worships the bible.Also, i never said you don't believe in the deity of Christ, i just asked you a basic question on what you believed about Jesus.Maybe you see me as some kind of bible thumping Pharisee.This is how i view the bible.For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.The bible to me is the living word, not just a check up from the neck up.The Lord speaks in many different ways, but primarily through his word.What is in question here is the Authority of the scriptures.
Graham,
Those verses weren't talking about this book that we call the bible. This is precicely the mindsets that are being addressed here.
It seems to me that what many Christians have difficulty with is the authority of Jesus. Jesus is a living being, the Bible is a book. He is greater than the book. The written word's purpose is to get us to the Living Word, Jesus. "The Lord speaks in many different ways", yes, but primarily the Living Word (the person Jesus) speaks. His sheep know His voice. Jesus and the Bible are not on the same level--Jesus is greater. To put the Bible on the same level as the person Jesus is idolatry, and sadly, too many Christians don't know the difference because they don't really know the person.
Graham if you respected the bible at all your would at least respect proper meaning and translation. That verse you quoted is talking about the first 5 books of the bible, NOT the bible that you have in your hand today. It couldn't be talking about our present version of the bible because it wasn't even compiled yet. Secondly, that's a pretty big statement about scripture being the primary way thorough which God speaks to us. I'd like a scripture reference for that please. If you can't bring one then please I would ask you to respect scripture a little more and not quote things that are not in there as if they were.
Graham, I don’t plan to add anything more to what has already been said since Darin and the others have adequately answered all of your questions. However, it seems to me that you’ve expressed your viewpoint well enough so I wonder why you continue to say the same thing over and over again. If the rest of us are really in error, do you not trust the Holy Spirit to reveal truth to us? I don’t believe it’s your job to fix us so I think it would be a good idea for you to just relax and trust the Holy Spirit to do what he said he would do.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NKJV)
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 3:1
The coming apostasy and the authority of Scripture
In this chapter Paul warns of the apostasy that will come in the last days. He also gives us the antidote for that apostasy, which is the Word of God.
Jeremiah 23:29 "Is not My word like fire?" declares the LORD, "and like a hammer which shatters a rock?
Ephesians 6:16-17 (NKJV)
16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.
17 And take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
All great and wonderful verses Graham, however not a one of them says that the bible is the primary way through which God speaks to us today. I think you THINK it says that but if you read them it simply does not. If you're trying to prove that scripture is valuable, you'll find no argument here on that point. If you're trying to prove that the bible is the main way God speaks to us today; you didn't.
I used to think that verse said that too Darin. Then I read it and realized it says a bunch of other things that scripture is useful for, but it doesn't say that it's the main way God talks to us today.
It's kinda like saying.. Darin's book IS Darin.. It's inspired by Darin and we can maybe understand some of what is in Darin's heart from reading Darin's book... but It's not the Person of Darin. oh my gosh if I stop saying Darin now.. it will have made it six times... but now I've said Darin 8 times.. # of perfection... let's all laugh now... ready? go.... lol.... :) let's all lighten up.. get it? Jesus is the light... :) Joy
LOL Laurie! Yes, Darin's book is great, but it ain't nothin' compared to meeting him in person, right? ;)
Very right! :)
24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words
“Your Word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path” (Psalm 119:105) (Psalm 19:7). “How can a young man keep his way pure? By living according to Your Word” (Psalm 119:9)“Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth: meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything that is written in it” (Joshua 1:8) If anyone claims that God has spoken to him/her, always compare what is said with what the Bible says. If God were to speak today, His words would be in full agreement with what He has said in the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16-17). God does not contradict Himself. Darin,there will always be someone out there that has a new revelation or a new word from the Lord.There is nothing new under the sun!
I laughed out loud about your discussion on calling the elders and the sick shall be he healed. I was an elder in a large church for 15 years and have had the same thoughts and struggles you guys described. If are afraid to question what we think the bible says we cannot learn anything new. The English often does not adequately reflect what the original languages communicate so it is best to be humble about what God actually is trying to say to us in the written word. Often the English poorly delivers God’s truth and much confusion is the result. Humility is found in questioning our understanding (especially when what we believe does not work or seems contradictory) and in that we can grow. Those who fear that become dogmatic. I am learning to let love settle all such disputes.
Yes Graham and the Un-Holy-Spirit-filled person who wrote that HAD to meditate on it night and day. However we have the LIVING WORD inside of us, unlike the author of that passage in Psalms. We are in the age of grace now graham. We are no longer under law. You are quoting Old Testament verses that were before the cross. You are denying everything that took place on the cross. We may as we be sacrificing goats and sheep as well if we're going to abide by those verses.
Robert, the scripture you were wondering about is Daniel 11:32
Thank you guys, for all of these podcasts. Obviously they aren't going to get through to those not ready to hear them ;-). But I get what you're saying. I hear you, I see you (Avatar reference, DARIN go see the movie!)
What a great podcast! Darin said we should be free to explore without any rules. I love that in the wild, we’re free to find out what we actually believe. For years, I was told what to believe but since I wasn’t free to explore outside of the lines, I never knew what I actually believed. All I had was a second hand faith. Now that I’m free, I’m developing a faith that is really mine. I suppose a lot of what I now believe would be considered radical in the institution but, at least, now I know what I believe and I’m thankful for the FBN where I can explore these ideas without fear or condemnation.
I have really enjoyed the comments made here... It is a true representation of what happens when we start asking questions and looking for answers. There is always someone out there that has all the answers...and can back them up(with scripture)...
I have come to the conclusion the good book was never intended for that purpose. It's intent was to bring individual knowledge, comfort and growth. Then the way to share that knowledge should come though love and "realationship"....
just my 2cents worth...