Aug 14, 2010
Self-Love and Judgement
Darin and Amy Ramos discuss the problem of a judgmental spirit and what it’s really doing to our relationships. It’s a cheap escape from true intimacy. Many times we do it to avoid standing face to face with the authentic center of another person. In our insecurity we find a replacement identity for people we don’t wish to encounter personally. The problem is that this mindset of exchanging someone’s true identity with a lie is that we ultimately make the same exchange when it comes to knowing ourselves and God.
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You have no idea how close to home this hits after the week I've had. And how undone I am when someone really sees me, genuinely cares about me. (as we all know, it is all about me!:o)
This was a wonderful eye opening podcast. Darin, your thought about focus and/or self-love was jaw dropping. Thank you 2 for showing me something that I have a huge problem with. Not loving yourself, or loving yourself too much. Wow. Darin and Amy...Blessings and thank you. I am literally in tears with this revelation.
Congratulations on another superb podcast. (I was hoping they were africanized killer bees - lol ).
Darin and Amy, again, one of the best ever...for me anyways
Great podcast but does raise issues needing more consideration. When do you call peoples' behaviour for what it is when it harms others? Why would you tell a fat person it is usually because they want to be fat (judgemental?)but a person who has harmed a baby through drug addiction they are a good mother? I can see the situation may have called for the latter but the former? A bit of an oversimplification. I have seen how certain medications can without fail totally change peoples' weight and they don't really know why, so it is more that that. Research has a long way to go studying appetite, carbohydrate cravings etc. What if many fat people have to face far more intense cravings than other people or do not have proper appetite/satisfaction control mechanisms in their body? Many "normal" people CANNOT eat what grossly obese people do. Much is unknown. Would love to hear more discussion especially about the question of the difference between judgementalism and setting boundaries and
simply having an opinion about something. I find this area very confusing at times.
Telling a mother who may have harmed her child through drug abuse that she's a good mother isn't the same as telling her she didn't have a choice in the matter. To compare those two statements (concerning the mother and the over weight person) doesn't even make sense. I would just as easily tell an over weight person that they are a good person. In fact, I wouldn't hesitate doing that. The question in the end is whether or not the mother and the over weight person had a choice in their circumstances and the answer in both situations is usually a YES.
So judgementalism is making the person feel that what ever bad choice they have made defines who they are (like "you are just a drug addict/ bad mother/ greedy fat pig/ slut etc". )That only cements the person in those choices, rather than freeing them to be someone who CAN make different choices ... Am I getting this at all? I only compared the two situations because I was thinking about how you would handle them in the light of not being judgemental. I realise they don't really bear comparison. Is it judgemental to speak an opinion when we believe someone is harming others and not caring?
If I may comment Jenny. It's like my son. He is a wonderful child, has a wonderful heart and is very respectful of me and others. He volunteers etc. He is 19 years old. Sometimes he makes really poor decisions. Recently I told him that something he did was really stupid. He started crying and said "so now I am just a stupid, terrible kid?" I said "no I am not saying that. You are a wonderful son who made a terrible stupid choice". I want to reinforce that he is better than that. That he is a wonderful child of God who made a very hurtful, destructive and self destructive choice. You don't want them to give up because they are not "bad", but let them know they have value, they are loved, and encourage them that this can just be a blip on the radar if they can realize that, and not let that behavior become a way of life because they think they are worthless, so what the heck does it matter anymore. Does that make sense? thats the way I heard it.
am I the only one that can't download this podcast??
never mind... I finally got it... no clue what was wrong.
There's also the possibility of supporting our kids--or anybody--even WHEN or AFTER they make a stupid choice (which is usually defined, somewhat narrowly, as a choice "I'd never have made!") By support, I mean at the minimum (1) a level-headed discussion (no artificiality, no equivocation, no anger) that centers on how the mistake can be a teachable moment, (2) letting them know you still trust their judgment even though he/she made this particular choice and (3) affirming that we feel closer to one another as we become vulnerable in the sharing of our weaknesses and mistakes, rather than in the parading of our strengths and successes.
Darin...one thing I have always liked about you is that you are not afraid of calling people on their BS. I have heard you preach about self love before when I went to listen to you at Phoenix First and I always loved your direct approach, cutting through the lies, psychobabble and BS. I think there needs to be more people like you and Dr Phil in the lack of fear to simply tell the truth.
Bryan, thanks for your comment. What you say makes sense, and is basically what I was trying to say. I hesitate to say that you sounded like you were judging me as having handled it poorly. There were no raised voices, many hugs and much support for my son. His choice was "stupid" (which could be a strong word), but it changed his and other lives forever. His life will never be the same in a very sad and devastating way. Hence I may have chosen the wrong word, but the immensity of the mistake caused a knee jerk reaction, which, as I said, I also backed up with love, support, and reassurance. My point was again to say he is a wonderful kid who I will always love and support for as long as I breathe. But lets try and be a little smarter next time and think about making careless decisions that affect many other lives of people who you care about.
I wanted to share a word picture about this very topic judging, and meddling. It goes like this. I am me, and I am in a boat. And you are in a boat. And she is in a boat. We are all in our boats out in the sea of life. Manning our boats,figuring this whole thing out. And all of a sudden, I spring a leak in my boat...and begin to freak out, but instead of me bailing out the water, and fixing my leak...I start to look at other people's boats. Start pointing my finger and pulling up to my friend and talking about so and so's leaks....lol. It's really a silly picture, but I hear the voice of God in my heart ALOT saying.. " Eyes on your boat... you fix that leak right there, and you keep your eyes on your own boat." Hope that makes sense. But how many times do we point the finger at other people's issues and dirt because we don't want to look at and deal with our own?
There is such a sick sense of, "Well, phew, at least mine isn't as bad as theirs." Or just denial, I guess. There is that saying..." You point the finger at another man's garbage, when you have 4 more fingers pointing at yours." That's it right there. Deal with your stuff, and keep your mouth, hands, eyes and self out of other people's stuff. When you talked about Jesus seeing people, I cried. Such Truth. That's my heart so so much... to offer like you did, Darin to that precious and wounded mom on drugs..love and acceptance. You saw who she really IS. Not what she "should" be doing and isn't right now...but who she is. It's almost like we call it out, just like God calls it out of us. Reminded me of Avatar too... " I see you." woow.. goosebumps! Beautiful the gift of love of truly seeing each other with the eyes of the Father. God, I pray I do that more and more. I loved this discussion Amy and Darin... loved it! Love you both so much!
I don't get this. I just listened to the podcast on fear and it seemed to me the guy who would not even look at people who have fear (and this guy even hears God speak - big deal!!!!!! if he hears God speak he needs a lot less faith than the rest of us in my opinion but I know that is a kneejerk reaction so don't bother to tell me and I don't want to start a big discussion on that topic)and to my mind he is being judgemental to the max. Why would rejecting people who fear be any different to rejecting people who have any other kind of problem? I think christians always will find yardsticks to measure others and they stop using the standard IC ones they find others.
Who said anything about "rejecting" those people? My friend simply couldn't look over in that direction because their faith was not only low but it was "in evil." Fear is faith in evil. It's a choice. Their fearful looks took his confidence away, so he chose not to even look in their direction because fear has a tendency of sucking people's faith right out of them. In terms of being judgmental, I think your assessment of that situation with what little information you had is a perfect illustration of being judgmental. You added words like "reject" and "judgmental" to the mix when you didn't even know the full story. Why not assume the best of him rather than the worst? Even Elijah who heard God audibly had to deal with having his faith shaken. Remember, it was God who led the entire Israelite Nation into the wilderness to die because they CHOSE to be in fear. Unfortunately fear is NOT just like any other kind of problem.
You said "he could not look at them" and I would feel pretty rejected if somebody could not look at me in my distess. I have had my faith sucked right out of me by MANY things, but strangely enough NEVER by other people's fear. I guess I am odd and have no right to bring my experiences or feelings to this conversation. I apologise if I came across as judgemental and I also apologise, but I still feel your friend has a problem. When Amy rang you about the needle, did you think "Don't come near me while you think this way because I could not look at you. You are sucking my faith out of me". Old testament illustrations do not really do it for me. God also did lots of other things in the old testament because of lots of other sins that we would not use as illustrations for now. I am really NOT trying to be obnoxious. I just do not take what I hear without thinking it through ever again, and I have a bad feeling in my heart about some of this. I am sorry.
I also wonder about the place of courage. We do not talk about this much today. Many people who have been in terrible situations (eg front line of battle, buddies falling around them) do not report absence of fear, but they face it down with courage and keep going. Is courage the big stick that conquers fear? Are there several kinds of fear - irrational fear, fear of things in the imagination, dread of things that are really going to happen,and all to be dealt with differently? God was giving the land to the Israelites and their fear was based on unbelief. Basically they chose unbelief. Quite different if your child is about to die and you are not anticipating that moment with pleasure. A different kind of fear altogether. But you can face that unpleasant future with courage that conquers. OK, so I'm pretty dumb, but that is how I think. Sorry. I have no problem with fearful people, but that is just me. I have plenty of other problems, like can't shut up when I should.
You still think my friend whom you've never met in your life, has a problem because of something that happened in a service you weren't in, for reasons you don't understand?? Jenny, If you are SERIOUSLY asking the question about Amy and the needle possibly sucking the faith out of me I just can't help you. Your thinking is off in left field. You are attempting to have a heart conversation with your head. If you honestly can't see the difference between having fear pointed straight at you and being ABOUT YOU (like my friends situation) and a person having a random fear of needles, I am at a total loss for what to say to you. Jenny if you have a "bad feeling" about us urging people not to allow their fears to control them, you might want to consider not hanging out at this particular website because I can pretty much guarantee you that we're gonna keep it up. I'm not trying to get you to leave, but you obviously are having issues with the very heart of the message we preach here.
Actually I was going on what you SAID "He would not look at people who had fear". Period. You did not explain it was a particular event in a service. You gave me the idea it was his general policy.If you don't want to explain further don't say it. And you couldn't be more wrong about YOUR assessment of MY situation. Walk two miles in MY shoes as you want ME to walk in your friend's. Of couirse I am not your friend, so I don't expect the same privaleges.I am just going to go and have a good cry and forget it. I love this website. It has been my lifeline. I NEVER SAID I did not want you to tell people not to let their fears control them. EVER. I TOTALLY AGREE WITH not letting our fears control us. I was worried about NOT LOOKING AT people who had fear. I thought we could discuss things here without condemnation. But I guess I am wrong. I am sorry!
No wonder we judge ourselves and others. We call Jesus the Judge and he's going to judge us on "judgement day". Didn't he take care of our sins on the cross? The last time I checked, he threw all my sins into the sea of forgetfullness, so why would he judge me? I believe this concept of God is what causes us to be so hard on ourselves and others.
I have had my cry. I couldn't help it. I am back. You may notice if you look that I do ask honest questions and accept your answers as earlier on. I guess I don't phrase them right for you because you did bristle before about my inapt comparison earlier on too when that was not my intention; I really just wanted to know how you handle the two situations. I am NOT opposed to you. I just don't get stuff from one or two statements and often think of other questions I want to ask; slow learner. You have experiences and stuff I don't; you know exactly what you mean but I am not you so I only go on what I understand from what you SAY and DON'T SAY. That is why I ask questions. I WANT clarification, like the situation with your friend. I did not WANT to think your friend would not look at people just because they had some fear but that SEEMED to be what you were SAYING. You could have just said "that was a particular situation that I can't explain further; he does not treat everybody who has
any fear of any kind in every situation that way" instead of telling me how seriously God treated fear in the Israelites etc. Why couldn't you simply say that. You never once said he had the fear "pointed straight at him". How was I suposed to know that if you did not tell me? Check the context of the conversation on the podcast and I think you will better understand my confusion. Do you want me to stop asking questions? If so say so directly and I will. I do NOT wish to offend.
ps - second time crying in a week - the pain podcast did it too. Don't know what is happening to me.
Jenny I have no problem with ANYONE asking questions. I guess I just felt like I detected a little cold condescension in your writing. The way you expressed it came across as patronizing. This particular guy I was talking about is someone I love with every fiber of my being so I probably jumped the gun with you simply because I'm SOOO protective of him. THAT coupled with the fact that I've been sick for the last three months and feeling exhausted 24/7 probably set me off. I really am sorry for responding the way I did. I know you were just asking a question. I probably just read them wrong.
Thank you. I am glad you defend your friend. That is what friends are for!!! I hope you can get some rest and soon feel better (I mean that sincerely; I don't know how you keep up what you do). I have been having a pretty rough time myself in MANY ways lately and so my visits have been pretty rushed and often interrupted so probably not well thought-out comments. I do enjoy all your writing and speaking. I acknowledge I sometimes think too much. I have been thinking about the pain podcast and I thought I had no qualities from what I have suffered, but I think one might be I tend to quickly defend anyone I percieve as the "underdog" but sometimes I misplace that somewhat(the poor "ignored" - so I thought - people with fear somehow became "the underdogs" I think.)I do know what you are saying about fear.I know you have a great heart for people and would not encourage anything that would harm them. I think that is why I was bewildered too. It made no sense. I am sorry for doubting you.