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May 13, 2011

The Doctrine of Change

changeDarin and Aimee talk about how Christianity has been marketed to the world as an instrument of change rather than a relationship. As a result, people judge their success as a Christian by how much they’ve changed since they’ve accepted Christ. So many people feel that God chose them as a “fixer upper” rather than because He loved them and wanted intimacy with them. It’s sad to see how many of us focus more on being healed or “getting better” then we do on knowing the heart of God. Change happens naturally in the course of life. It happens to the righteous and the wicked. God didn’t choose us because He wanted to change us. He chose us for relationship because He really likes us the way we are. 

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    Good stuff! I liked Amy's comment about evangelism and the, are u saved, question? My heart instantly replied, we should be asking people, are you loved? Our relationships should include an element of wondering, does this person know Your love yet? That seems to be how Darin replied to the couple in Romania: do u think God chose u to work on you, or to love u? My daily question lately has been, am I being amazed by His love? If I am then my fears, doubts and worries melt away. Awareness of His love leaves me no choice but to believe!

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    I never even considered this before, at least in this complete context of measuring change and placing your value as a christian on how much. I do relate how God loves me the way I love my son, but this really was eye opening. Thanks Darin and Aimee, really good!

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    Aimee Dassele

    Thanks Brettact2 and Dave. Great subject huh? One that most Christians don't even consider. Brettact2 I loved your thought about asking the question, "Are you loved?" That is beautiful. I feel that the "good news" isn't "You can be saved!" The good news is "You are so loved and amazing already; you just don't know it yet..." Thanks for the comments...

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    Melissa Saulnier

    THANKS....Awesome! If you only knew. Wish I had hours and hours to listen to you and respond. Love you tons Melissa Saulnier

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    Regarding hell, I had always felt that God made a really bad marketing mistake there. I am not sure what I believe about it at this point. When do we get a podcast on this 'hot' topic? Or was there one that I missed? This totally flies in the face of American churchianity. I think real change must be a natural by-product of living loved, not a goal we are to pursue in and of itself.

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    Aimee, it was a great subject. One that you just take for granted that as a "christian" is important, then after listening to you guys , I realized, didnt even matter. I wish you guys could have gone on. I get the sense you felt the same way. I hope to meet the both of you some day. Thanks again for a wonderful discussion

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    Darin Hufford

    Discussion on hell --------->

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    iris hill

    Darin, Just started listening to this podcast, you are talking about the royal wedding. Pippa, Kate's sister, is short for Phillipa. You did make me laugh talking about the wedding, I live in the uk by the way lol x

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    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!WONDERFUL!!!!!!!!!!!TRUE!!!! two quotes I've read or heard this week. "When God created humanity and said it was very good, he never took it back." I agree that the separation happened inside the people. it wasn't something done to them by God. They, in their minds, decided there was something wrong with them. (from Jonathan Brink)

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    Second quote.When you sow fear, you reap resentment. when you sow grace, you reap love. (from Eric Elnes @

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    and a share. I threw away or destroyed so many things precious to me, because of wanting to give up everything for God. poetry, drawings, a sculpture of myself, treasured gifts, a whole lot of really good albums. Ridiculous. I just listened to today's episode of Darkwood Brew. one person talked about how we've made God the enemy that we need to be saved from. or did you say that in the podcast? now I'm getting confused!

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    Thank you Darin. Too much stuff to think about. I appreciate you guys.

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    I have listened 3 times & have it on my ipod again, I love this discussion. It really has helped explain how God has been relating to me for some time now, which didn't fit in a church box. Hope you get well soon Darrin.

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    Darin Hufford

    I must say I'm really surprised at how well received this podcast show has been. I knew the subject matter was a good one but I had no idea it would hit people so hard. Perhaps we should stay on this topic for awhile and see where it goes:)

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    I loved this. A couple years back I was really confronted with some questions along the same line as I was watching some evangelical tv commercials and I said to a friend, wow all these people are talking about their lives falling apart and then Jesus made it better and thats not bad but what about the people who are living lives that are pretty good. I mean where is the relationship in this advertisment? I know some really good people, with healthy relationships, jobs and attitudes. I guess there is no reason for them to know God, if its only about fixing things. Not until someone hits rocks bottom is there a reason to know God. What a shame its promoting in such a way, 'cause I kinda just like knowing Him. I remember sensing God saying to me once, "Laura, Im not so much concerned about the circumstances of your life as I am with My relationship with you." Like really He just wanted to have a relationship with me. (and us all) Cool! Great discussion!

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    Christianity is absolutely about the relationship. No question. I have children and love them greatly. My father loved me greatly and was an amazing example of that love. My children know my love and know that I am for them. I thank God that my father loved me enough not to leave me to my own decisions and determinations. He caused me to grow, mature and become a man. I also thank God that out of that relationship absolutely motivated by His love for me that draws me daily to Him. And it is through the relationship I have with him the hours days weeks months and years in my intimate times he brings great change to my life. Jesus died so I could be redeemed back to a relationship with Him. Redeemed in its very essence means that I have been changed. It was sin that separated me and now having been redeemed back to a right relationship I pursue the change to strengthen my relationship with my heavenly Father. He accepts me where I am and that's what brings real change.

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    To give up the doctrine of change was about one of the first thing I did on this journey out of religion. And all I can say is, that I never regretted it. It seems like that was the killer number one for my relationship with people. Since I have a restored relationship with my parents, without having a talk or something, it just happened. And when I look back I can see how much I changed in the last three and a half years, its crazy. And I never even thought about changing anymore. Good podcast.

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    Ed Fernandez

    Darin ... the couple in Romania you wanted me to put in the comments section: Aura and TiBi (Tibor), with their baby Luca

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    Sparkling Eyes of

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    Aimee Dassele

    you are right...we did want to keep going and felt like we could have :-) I knew it would be well recieved and wouldn't mind coming back to it in the near future. LW - as you know now, we did do a podcast on the subject but think we need to come back to the 'hell' topic again as's too important (or unimportant) to not discuss again ;-)

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    Aimee Dassele

    Laura - loved your comments....thanks for sharing that....

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    Aimee, that would be good...I fall into that category of U.R (well at least a hopeful believer in ultimate reconciliation), but regardless, i totally loved this talk you and Darrin had. I did that thing of getting rid of my music a number of wasn't even secular music i got rid of - it was anything from Amy Grant or Keith Green to Tourniquet, Vengeance Rising (a late 80s extreme christian metal band). I was a young christian who thought God was pleased by 'sacrifices' more than simply resting in His love....

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    Totally did the "burn the secular tapes" thing! Dangit! Firstly LOVE you two! Miss you both like crazy! LOVED this podcast... have to catch up on them, but thought I would start with the newest on my walk yesterday morning... LOVED this topic! I was thinking on it yesterday, and it's so true that somewhere along the lines the priority of relationship with God switched to the priority of "holiness". Where God wants that first always. Holiness for me has always meant don't sin. I mean, in scripture Jesus who says it Himself right? "Be holy as I am holy... be perfect as I am perfect." But what I am starting to see is that holy and perfect have a lot more to do with being WHOLE, then with not sinning. I think sin comes from broken-ness, and Jesus was never broken. He didn't "try" not to sin, He didn't NEED to sin. He was whole and perfect inside because He knew who God really was. He knew what God's heart has always been. He knew He was accepted 1000%, wholly loved, wholly accepte

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    wholly accepted. I can do that... I can be perfectly whole, just like Jesus. Confident, not comparing myself to others, being 100% me... just like Jesus.. yep. I can do that. I feel more and more the truth of this whole "salvation" area is that salvation has everything to do with healing and wholeness to my heart and perspective, and less and less to do with hell. lol! So for me to be like Jesus, is for me to be 100% ME! :) Thankyou for your hearts ALWAYS!

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    John Coroy

    WWhen the IC talks about “change” they usually mean changing into their sects customs. God invaded my life with His offer of salvation with unconditional love. I was not “fixer upper” but I need healing and His truth to replace some areas of woundedness in my life. I have been changed many, many times through the years as a result of love, not judgment. Circumstance and my own sin had opened up so may demonic “doors” of torment, misunderstandings and lies that I need His truth and love to dispel and heal the damage life had inflicted on me. Over time He shows them to me and when He does I invite Him to heal me. For torments I usually pray, “close that door Lord” and He closes it! I have found that I must invite Him into my darkness with His light before He will come in. I don't have to concentrate on my short comings and I don't think for a moment that He measures His love based on them. I am freer now but I am not perfected but He still loves me as if I am perfect in His sight!

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    I think Pippa is short for Philippa. & the 'boy' character Pippin is from the Lord of the Rings..... :)

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    That was a great discussion! There really is so much of the goodness & incomprehensible love of God that has been highjacked out of what it means to be a "Christian". Maybe it's from all those people who, back in the day, were put under such performance anxiety that they just wanted to 'share the wealth'....or maybe they were all performancy b/c of religion. Chicken or the egg..... I dunno.

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    Guys I think the topic of hell ties in very closely with 'change.' Facebook today full of folks slapping people in the face with Bible verses and warnings that Heaven and Hell are real so everyone better be scared and make sure they're on the right list (thanks for the comic relief free believers ;-)). Seems like the question of the day is: Have you changed enough to where Jesus will take you with him tomorrow? The deep division in the Church is disturbing. Today I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry.

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    So many questions about hell! What kind of clothes will I be wearing? What kind of background music do they play there? Can I buy illegal drugs for a reasonable price there? Will I have to tithe ... The list goes on and on. One book about hell that I found to be awesome is “Her Gates Will Never Be Shut, Hope, Hell and the New Jerusalem” by Bradley Jersak. It also contains a lot of useful references that you can throw at any smart-ass Hell Rep that comes your way. I haven’t read Rob Bell’s “Love Wins” yet.

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    It's so funny, b/c, as I was listening to this podcast, I wasn't sure if I fully agreed with what you guys were talking about. Then, something clicked. I understood. After you mentioned the thing about Adam and Eve, it really hit me-how much God pursues us. He's not angry. He's always wanted us to know that we are okay. He loves us.

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