The theme is.....

[radio roswell]

As I look around these days in the realm of those who have parted ways from the institutional religious paradigm one theme keeps coming up to the surface.

The desire to be really free. But not some romantic idea of James Dean riding off into the sunset with a guitar strapped to their back. Although the imagery can paint a useful symbol.

When I came out of the institution it was like spiritually breathing for the first time in along time. A giant sigh of relief. But then something unsettling began to creep in. I wanted to go to war with the institution that seemingly disillusioned me. Although the benefits of such activity are probably necessary for a season I found them to be a dead end in spiritual growth. Once again I was not as free as I thought. The desire to get out now was back again. The institution had me again.

I desired it subconsciously. Weird right ? but true if I'm honest. Oh sure I want to be free but freedom is scary. I was no longer sure of anything.

Until this quiet still idea began to surface slowly. Very painfully slow.

If you don't feed the freedom of spirit to be the real self you were intended it haunts you like a whisper that is so loud. When the denial of self turns inward and becomes directed at the false sense of ego centric self it's what Jesus meant. But when it is directed at the true self of creative force and co creating ideas of purpose and sense of existence in itself it becomes toxic and self loathing.

To take it even further..th anxiety of being dual minded of dreams and hopes on one hand and sadness and doubt on the other fluctuate frantically trying to gain identity. I fear bliss actually. Because there's no control in bliss. Joy and peace have nothing I can add to them. This makes me nervous and desperate towards an unfamiliar space of feelings and experiences.

Now I know that life's reality of everyday experience is not all bliss and joy. But what if I'm living someone else's idea or subscription of experience. What if everything I have been taught spiritually is backwards. That selfish endeavors of being true to one self and seeking peace and asking for help with co creating ideas and experiences with others for myself and themselves as well is really the expansion of intention of sharing divine unity and love and what real care is.

when the true self is denied and creativity is seen as a selfish endeavor could it be possible the person I think I am frantically seeks proof of existence ? This constant slave of proving one's worth in" I exist damn it"! when in reality the funny thing is of course you exsist..no proof needed.

Imagine what could be achieved if that was off the table. Imagine the peace of just being. I am beginning to suspect that when I deny this idea I fill it with false ideas about myself that have to be lived up to and worse are not real. And why I am susceptible to institutional paradigms in the first place who don't really know they are doing instructionally spiritually speaking. The collective follows naturally by way of natural susceptibility.

so...umm thoughts..?

[Mark]

So just want to make sure I get you...
The desire to "go to war" with the IC became a surrogate institution of sorts. Something to tie your spiritual identity to. When you realized this you were terrified of actual freedom. No reference points, no community, no fans or supporters. You realized that no reference points means no self and you werent ready for that.
I liked your comment that there is nothing to add to true bliss and joy. The irony in the fact which so few people suspect starting out, that ultimate spiritual "happiness" is a form of suicide in the sense that you have to kill off the need to be special and produce things or ideas that people can admire and appreciate and validate.
This is what causes people to get into the guru business. And once they are there they, consciously or not, need to influence, control, take credit, feed their sexual egos, get rich etc..
This is why the Korean zen "master" Seung Sahn (who ironically fell prey to it himself) said "wanting enlightenment is a big mistake". Wanting bliss and happiness or "freedom" externalizes it. It's something to chase that isnt "you". Its easy to fall into because no matter how hard we try to unpeel the layers of false-identification there is no end to it. The minute we go "ah, here it is, my true self!" it shifts and moves and shows its ephemerality.
Blissful, happy people, simple people, without ambitions to rise above others and be admired, rarely self consciously evaluate the nature or permanence or ultimacy of their happiness. They just do their thing. And people like to be around them. And they like to be around people.
Again though, the other trap, or irony, is simply knowing this and "giving up the search" before we are happy will rarely result in happiness. Just a detour and a supressing of desire that will end up having it's day later on, at an inconvenient time - when we're older, with less time to kill, feeling like we fooled ourselves and missed our window and time is running out. Bleh.

[Mark]

Personally, having done the rounds and crash landed into this point, the true, Jungian-style mid-life crisis, a serious crisis of meaning and purpose, with the attendant awareness of closing windows and such, without trying or wanting to, I realized the folly in much of my spiritual ambitions.
Yes, I wanted to practice zen to ease my suffering. But I also secretly wanted to get through it so I could be a zen teacher and have admirers and book contracts. But looking back, at which point was I actually ready for it? Even with the shots of bliss and joy that came (and went)? If I could actually have that now, with people sitting there, looking at me wanting answers, would I want that? What would I tell such people now? Probably "run".
Yes, I wanted to be a superstar DJ/producer and party with Massive Attack and Madonna. But again, even though I skirted fairly close to breaking out at one point, at which point would I really have been able to handle that? And if for some weird reason I could have that now, would I want it? nope. Not knowing what I know now.

I hated losing my job in the corporate world. It stung the hell out of my ego. It was also astonishing how quickly my peers moved on and forgot about me. But if I could have it back (although if I had really tried I probably would by now), would I want it? Hell no. What a horrible existence that was (aside from the pride part, which never lasted long anyway).

All this came to me in a crash n burn mid-life crisis. That was everything. All of it. No more aspirations or ambitions. All of it unmasked and largely empty. No where to go, nothing to do. No answers, no ideas about next steps.

So... Looking back, when was I actually at my happiest? When was I not tortured, ashamed, embarrassed, ambitious, seeking recognition and validation?
It was surpisingly easy to answer. From childhood until late teens, when I liked to make art. I never doubted myself, I never compared myself. I had friends, girlfriends. I wasnt chasing anything. And even though I wasnt conscious or aware of it, I was at my most powerful, charismatic and influential. But harmless. For some reason I turned my back on it, thinking I needed to in order to make a living and be successful, and everything that ever followed was a poor, less authentic and largely unsuccessful substitute. Always falling apart or self-sabbotaged at some crucial point. All of it, ALL of it because I was chasing an external reference point or measure of success.

Were my struggles and troubles and pain and spiritual yearning because of how messed up the world (or the zen scene or music scene, or business world) is? No. I turned my back on something I already knew and was and lived, even as a child. Why? How?
Doesnt matter. Cant change the past.

With nothing to chase, and nowhere to go or become, I picked up paper and pencil and charcoal and chalk and started drawing again. Because I had to. And it saved my life.
I have no idea what to do with it and thats ok. It makes me happy. And it makes my girlfriend/fiance happy. And my poor parents who have watched me struggle for decades, seem to get it, and makes them happy.

What's next? Don't know. Dont care.

[radio roswell]

Wow Mark...great !

Yes you get what I'm trying to say. And also I'm not saying the the grind of the cursed ground we must till for funds and survive is not relevant. Of course it is. Goes without saying.

But man if we can just get those oasis spots going and let them linger and challenge the overcast skies once in awhile and show they TOO exsist !

For me my medium is music as you know. And just to let you know I did finish that cd and the whole thing can be down loaded here for free.

http://alonetone.com/radioroswell/playlists/white-light

[Mark]

My internet is acting up and really slow right now but I cant wait to hear it. Congrats man.

Btw, I never interpreted you as saying making a living isn't relevant.
I think though that for everyone, but perhaps especially for "sensitives" and "seekers" and artists, musicians and such, merely slogging away at making a living is a slow death that becomes highly problematic the older we get - when we start to twig that no ship is coming in while we bide our time. The soul's cry for a "vocation", a "calling", is really no different, in fact it comes from the same source as the longing for God or spiritual happiness etc. The soul never cries out for a "job to make ends meet" (unless of course we live in dire circumstances)- or for that matter, mainstream religion.

[radio roswell]

Thanks..that music site is pretty cool. It lets you host up to 320k quality downloads and video links .

Oh yeah..not you it was just in general for anyone who might want to weigh in because everytime I seem to explain where I am that gets brought up like instantly.

I like what you said about being a zen master and possibly selling tons of books. I had a friend who said once "Imagine selling a best seller and getting to speak at a TED talk and watching your own head explode."

Just to feel it of course....and the money would be cool too.

[Mark]

Shee-it man, your music is really good. I've always liked it but you've honed it nicely - makes a consistent listen. Lots of unexpected chords and drum patterns that totally work. Your voice is enjoyable and distinct. The whole thing draws you in.
Good show brother.
Never heard of that site before. I like using it more than soundcloud. Comfortable interface. Does it get much traffic though?

[radio roswell]

Thanks man, means a lot ...I do work at it. The traffic isn't all that great and it s mostly musicians hanging out and listening to each other. At least it's a free hosting for music quality. I guess I'll have to find my own traffic to drive my section.

[AidaC]

Wow! Great topic and great conversation.

If you don't feed the freedom of spirit to be the real self you were intended it haunts you like a whisper that is so loud.

Jeff, I can totally relate. For years, I hid the real ME trying to please everyone around me but now I’m allowing the real ME to come out more and more. I’ve heard Darin say that you’ve got to get to the place where you don’t care what people think and that’s very true if you want to be an authentic person.

To take it even further..th anxiety of being dual minded of dreams and hopes on one hand and sadness and doubt on the other fluctuate frantically trying to gain identity.

I’ve been learning more and more to look into my heart in order to discover the dreams that have always been there and have been lying dormant. I’ve made some exciting discoveries as I’ve started to seek them out. What an amazing adventure life became as I started to actually live them.

So... Looking back, when was I actually at my happiest? When was I not tortured, ashamed, embarrassed, ambitious, seeking recognition and validation?
It was surpisingly easy to answer. From childhood until late teens, when I liked to make art. I never doubted myself, I never compared myself. I had friends, girlfriends. I wasnt chasing anything. And even though I wasnt conscious or aware of it, I was at my most powerful, charismatic and influential. But harmless. For some reason I turned my back on it, thinking I needed to in order to make a living and be successful, and everything that ever followed was a poor, less authentic and largely unsuccessful substitute. Always falling apart or self-sabbotaged at some crucial point. All of it, ALL of it because I was chasing an external reference point or measure of success.

I’ve discovered that when I look back into my past and see what I really enjoyed doing then, a clearer picture of who I am comes out. For years, I gave up reading for pleasure and only read the Bible or books about how to be a better Christian. However, now I just read whatever interests me and I read a lot of fantasy books. This interest has always been a part of me since I remember as a teen reading every book on mythology I could get my hands on. I also love motivational books and I’ve learned a lot more by immersing myself in both of these genres than I ever did by focusing solely on the religious type of books.

I think though that for everyone, but perhaps especially for "sensitives" and "seekers" and artists, musicians and such, merely slogging away at making a living is a slow death that becomes highly problematic the older we get - when we start to twig that no ship is coming in while we bide our time. The soul's cry for a "vocation", a "calling", is really no different, in fact it comes from the same source as the longing for God or spiritual happiness etc. The soul never cries out for a "job to make ends meet" (unless of course we live in dire circumstances)- or for that matter, mainstream religion.

Mark, this is where I am right now in my life. I’ve now been retired for all of 2 weeks and loving it. I finally feel free after many, many years because I’m now doing what I enjoy doing. Two days a week, I do volunteer work at a health and fitness center and I feel like I’ve finally found what my heart was crying out for. I told my husband that everything I’ve ever done before was just a job but now I’ve finally found a career. My volunteer work involves working with those who have been sick or injured and with the elderly. Previous to this, I was working in a public high school with teenagers and, although I love my kids, there's a satisfaction and fulfillment with my volunteer work that I never remember having on the job. I actually look forward to going and I feel fulfilled when I leave.

I wish I had discovered this path when I was younger but I’m glad I have discovered it now. I’m sure I’m still missing a lot but my work at the fitness center and with the FBN gives me a satisfaction that makes my heart sing. How horrible it would be to leave this world never having experienced that fulfillment.

[free2behis]

Personally, having done the rounds and crash landed into this point, the true, Jungian-style mid-life crisis, a serious crisis of meaning and purpose, with the attendant awareness of closing windows and such, without trying or wanting to, I realized the folly in much of my spiritual ambitions.
Yes, I wanted to practice zen to ease my suffering. But I also secretly wanted to get through it so I could be a zen teacher and have admirers and book contracts. But looking back, at which point was I actually ready for it? Even with the shots of bliss and joy that came (and went)? If I could actually have that now, with people sitting there, looking at me wanting answers, would I want that? What would I tell such people now? Probably "run".
Yes, I wanted to be a superstar DJ/producer and party with Massive Attack and Madonna. But again, even though I skirted fairly close to breaking out at one point, at which point would I really have been able to handle that? And if for some weird reason I could have that now, would I want it? nope. Not knowing what I know now.

I hated losing my job in the corporate world. It stung the hell out of my ego. It was also astonishing how quickly my peers moved on and forgot about me. But if I could have it back (although if I had really tried I probably would by now), would I want it? Hell no. What a horrible existence that was (aside from the pride part, which never lasted long anyway).

All this came to me in a crash n burn mid-life crisis. That was everything. All of it. No more aspirations or ambitions. All of it unmasked and largely empty. No where to go, nothing to do. No answers, no ideas about next steps.

So... Looking back, when was I actually at my happiest? When was I not tortured, ashamed, embarrassed, ambitious, seeking recognition and validation?
It was surpisingly easy to answer. From childhood until late teens, when I liked to make art. I never doubted myself, I never compared myself. I had friends, girlfriends. I wasnt chasing anything. And even though I wasnt conscious or aware of it, I was at my most powerful, charismatic and influential. But harmless. For some reason I turned my back on it, thinking I needed to in order to make a living and be successful, and everything that ever followed was a poor, less authentic and largely unsuccessful substitute. Always falling apart or self-sabbotaged at some crucial point. All of it, ALL of it because I was chasing an external reference point or measure of success.

Were my struggles and troubles and pain and spiritual yearning because of how messed up the world (or the zen scene or music scene, or business world) is? No. I turned my back on something I already knew and was and lived, even as a child. Why? How?
Doesnt matter. Cant change the past.

With nothing to chase, and nowhere to go or become, I picked up paper and pencil and charcoal and chalk and started drawing again. Because I had to. And it saved my life.
I have no idea what to do with it and thats ok. It makes me happy. And it makes my girlfriend/fiance happy. And my poor parents who have watched me struggle for decades, seem to get it, and makes them happy.

What's next? Don't know. Dont care.

Sounds like we got a ticket on the same boat.

Sometimes I wish I would have stayed blissfully ignorant, and left the spiritual pursuits to the sages, monks, and hermits. God, and the concept thereof was much easier to manage when I could confine it to a theological box. I find after all of my pursuits, seeking, asking, knocking, I know less now than when I began.

[Mark]

Mark, this is where I am right now in my life. I’ve now been retired for all of 2 weeks and loving it. I finally feel free after many, many years because I’m now doing what I enjoy doing. Two days a week, I do volunteer work at a health and fitness center and I feel like I’ve finally found what my heart was crying out for. I told my husband that everything I’ve ever done before was just a job but now I’ve finally found a career. My volunteer work involves working with those who have been sick or injured and with the elderly. Previous to this, I was working in a public high school with teenagers and, although I love my kids, there's a satisfaction and fulfillment with my volunteer work that I never remember having on the job. I actually look forward to going and I feel fulfilled when I leave.

I wish I had discovered this path when I was younger but I’m glad I have discovered it now. I’m sure I’m still missing a lot but my work at the fitness center and with the FBN gives me a satisfaction that makes my heart sing. How horrible it would be to leave this world never having experienced that fulfillment.

That's wonderful Aida. Were you a highschool teacher? I wonder if you find that what you are doing now is more fulfilling because it's entirely by choice, without the pressure of job performance, making a living and so on. Or because of the level of genuine need on the part of those you help now?

[Mark]

Sounds like we got a ticket on the same boat.

Sometimes I wish I would have stayed blissfully ignorant, and left the spiritual pursuits to the sages, monks, and hermits. God, and the concept thereof was much easier to manage when I could confine it to a theological box. I find after all of my pursuits, seeking, asking, knocking, I know less now than when I began.

Right, but in that knowing less, there is much knowing, ya know?
I think being a seeker is not something we choose. It's a genuine part of who we are. I dont regret responding to the impulse. I can only speak for myself, but where I went adrift was in attaching prestige to my search, pride, maybe self-righteousness at times. Fantasizing about professionalizing it. This is the sickness that plagues the "priest class" in all times and in all cultures. And chances are, they secretly know that they don't know anything and are possibly frauds, and is possibly why so many end up becomming destructive. People with a thorn in their conscience usually do.
But in truth, and it is probably the same with you, my spirituality goes back almost as far as I can remember. As a child, a saw my mothers yoga book and I just naturally tried to do what was in the pictures, having picked up from somewhere that yoga was supposed to produce some kind of magical or supernatural awareness. In "religion" class in catholic school (maybe grade 4 or 5) I saw a picture of the great Buddha statue in Japan and some monks, and I distinctly remember thinking, "that guy knew everything there is to know". By highschool I was having flashes of insight about the cyclical/macro/micro universe while walking in the woods, and having shamanic impulses. In my spiritual world, Jesus, God, the Buddha, animism and magic were all there, without trying or researching. I didnt feel the itch to "go pro" until my life started going to shit and I was unhappy. And then it starts. When you really dig, authentically pry open the boxes, you find phantoms and dust as often as truth. And you invest so much time and hope that not finding something that abides becomes unacceptable, loses its mystery and becomes an obsession. It seems that it is not until it is almost too late to do anything about it that the phantoms, dust and obsession show themselves to be where much of the "truth" to be found is. Or something like that.

[radio roswell]

Anyone seen " interstellar" ? It was mind blowing at one point. there was great line and theory of sorts.

I think being a seeker is not something we choose. It's a genuine part of who we are. I dont regret responding to the impulse. I can only speak for myself, but where I went adrift was in attaching prestige to my search, pride, maybe self-righteousness at times. Fantasizing about professionalizing it. This is the sickness that plagues the "priest class" in all times and in all cultures. And chances are, they secretly know that they don't know anything and are possibly frauds, and is possibly why so many end up becomming destructive. People with a thorn in their conscience usually do.

morning listener

Right, oh yes...and perhaps we are given the right being for it too but fear it's true potential.

What I mean is , it takes much personal responsibility of thought and aware ness to hold to such vocation and purpose. Pioneers always are stopping to catch their soulful and mindful breath. It is the gravity of the calling. Magnetic even.

[Mark]

Anyone seen " interstellar" ? It was mind blowing at one point. there was great line and theory of sorts.

I think being a seeker is not something we choose. It's a genuine part of who we are. I dont regret responding to the impulse. I can only speak for myself, but where I went adrift was in attaching prestige to my search, pride, maybe self-righteousness at times. Fantasizing about professionalizing it. This is the sickness that plagues the "priest class" in all times and in all cultures. And chances are, they secretly know that they don't know anything and are possibly frauds, and is possibly why so many end up becomming destructive. People with a thorn in their conscience usually do.

morning listener

Right, oh yes...and perhaps we are given the right being for it too but fear it's true potential.

What I mean is , it takes much personal responsibility of thought and aware ness to hold to such vocation and purpose. Pioneers always are stopping to catch their soulful and mindful breath. It is the gravity of the calling. Magnetic even.

Precisely. -

[paul-s-]

This is an interesting topic. I think it does tie-in with the concept of attaching to some sense of self, which is something of an illusion.

Its got a lot to do with creating a sense of identity and purpose - without it we feel lost. With spirituality there always seems to be a doctrine, mission statement and set of beliefs that we feel we need to fight to defend and promote vigorously. There always seems to be some sort of opposition to strike out against. For most Christians this enemy tends to be atheists, hedonists and sinful, apathetic or backslidden Christians. With the grace message, the enemy is those Christians who hold onto the concept of following a set of rules. There is a need to promote a message, change society for the better and persuade people that our way is the only way. This desire in us gives us a sense of purpose and keeps us engaged with the spiritual doctrine we adhere to. With the grace message, once you've got the message and believe it, there's often a sense of "what's next?"

I totally get that thing with "guruism". I didn't seem to fit in anywhere, "normal", secular life didn't seem to work well for me. So it just seemed that God had called me to some great spiritual purpose. I get the feeling now that God simply wants me know and believe in Him, but to also come to terms with reality, including my weaknesses, past mistakes, other people and normal life. It does feel disappointing because I honestly thought I was going to be the latest Christian author bring the newest breakthrough and revelation to the world; earning fame and fortune at the same time; all in the name of serving God, of course.

Coming back to the Zen thing. The unfortunate thing about spirituality is that we're always trying to comprehend abstract, spiritual mysteries with our conscious mind. As soon as we do this, we put spiritual things within the limited box of our own egos, together with our limiting wants, such as the want for control and approval. There's always a need to try to understand things in relation to the physical world we perceive with our senses. Jesus often expressed spiritual truths using physical analogies, so we could better understand them, "The kingdom of God is like..." Again, we limit spiritual things when we try to comprehend them in a physical way.

I'm now convinced that the best spiritual approaches are those that work by "letting go". This is very much a Zen Buddhist approach and includes things like The Sedona Method (releasing), The Work of Byron Katie (inquiry) and meditation. Its a difficult approach to take for many people, as the tendency with spirituality is to want to use formulas to control circumstances, such as prayer of faith or affirmations. We want to lay claim to having all the answers and being on the only true path to God. With letting go, you are relinquishing your control of circumstances, knowing that by doing so, you allow life to flow unresisted, which usually leads to the best outcome. If anyone's interest in the concept of "letting go", look up someone called Guy Finley.