"God, please bless the homos"

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Kameronmessmer
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"God, please bless the homos"

Post by Kameronmessmer »

Hey all. I had to rant after a fight with my father and it kinda turned into a blog so i posted it on face book. A lot of people commented on it so i thought i might post it on here for those not on facebook. Please let me know your opinions!
(This is a re-edit where i changed some of the offensive words and added a couple thoughts. If anyone wants to read the original let me know)



So my dad and I recently had a fight. Normally it is about my views verses his views. I’m pretty sure they think I am a heretic. He showed me a YouTube video of Christians praying against homosexual marriage at some rally or something. The Christians were also singing a hymn and the gay people didn’t really like either so they started yelling and telling them to leave. It was quite a violent reaction. The Christians had to be escorted out by police. This was their proof that Christians were not being tolerated etc. I had a problem with this video and was dumb enough to share my problems with my dad. I don’t remember all the discussion points because it became quite heated but I’ll try to hit as many as I remember.
I asked the question why were the gay people so angry at the Christians. It is because they see them as hating them. Of course a good Christian can’t hate so they won’t admit that but to the gay people it looks the same. They can’t see the separation in, “ love the sinner hate the sin” when Christians are praying against them. Christians attack the lifestyle and you can’t attack the lifestyle without attacking the person. They say they don’t hate the homosexuals but it is hard to tell. I have been in church services and I have heard how Christians talk about gay people. It usually isn’t in a positive light. How can we say we love them if we call them names or make fun of them? It seems like a mixed message…

I asked my father how he would feel if people started picketing his business and tried to shut him down. (We have a costume/magic/tuxedo business by the way) There are some Christians who have problems with magic even though this is the sleight of hand variety and not the animal entrails kind. What if some well meaning Christians thought we were spreading witchcraft and evil and we can’t be polluting the people’s minds like that so they tried to get us to shut down. What if they tried to pass laws to run us out of town? They picket our store; silently pray against us. Form a circle around the store and pray to God we would close our doors. How would he feel? He had little to say…

One of my problems is with Christians who try to pass stupid laws like this. They are trying to ban gay marriage and I tried to ask my dad “to what end?” of course he couldn’t answer this. I doubt he knew. I asked what they were trying to accomplish. If they ban gay marriage will they stop being gay? Will they stop fighting and put down their signs and find the nearest person of the opposite sex to marry? Will they see the light and become Christians? Of course not. The only thing it will accomplish is it will make them hate Christians more. The fact that they hate them now was just proof that the Christians are right. To me it just said the Christians gave them good reason to hate them. Doesn’t mean the Christians were right. I asked him if Jesus would be in that picket line with the Christians. He said yes and I couldn’t control myself. I laughed a mighty, “B******t!” I couldn’t imagine Jesus praying AGAINST anyone. It doesn’t look like love. My father said it was love and it doesn’t matter what it looks like. Back to the hypothetical magic protesters, the people that would picket our store might say they have the best of intentions for us. They say they care for us and the people that we damage with our witchcraft. They are just showing it by fighting tooth and nail for our destruction. Would they be holding signs saying, “You are going to HELL!”? What love they have!

I see Jesus having dinner with these “sinners”, being their friend, loving on them, not picketing them and praying against them as strangers. There’s a point I didn’t think of till after… How did the sinners of Jesus day respond to Him? If these Christians are acting like Jesus sinners should respond likewise to Christians right? Of course the sinners of Jesus day hated him and yelled at him and fought with him… Oh wait! The sinners were his friends! He hung out with them and ate with them! Jesus was accused of being a sinner because of the people he hung out with and his reputation of being a glutton and a drunk! If Jesus were here today he would be accused of being gay or at the very least a gay supporter! How did Jesus treat the people who followed all the rules? He yelled at them and called them horrible names. (Matthew 3:7, 23:13-15, 23:25, 27,)
He brought up that homosexuality is a sin but the times it is mentioned in the Bible it is often right next to things Christian do all the time. In Leviticus it is right in there with things like eating shellfish and cutting the edges of your beard, or touching the skin of a dead pig (football) or eating meat with the blood still in it or wearing clothes of two different materials among lots of other things.
Why is homosexuality any worse than gluttony or greed? Why aren’t Christians picketing buffets and shopping malls? I asked him how many times Jesus mentions homosexuality. He didn’t know. He says he believes in his precious Bible and he doesn’t know. I told him not once. He said God hates it and we should hate the things God hates. I agree, but there are far more things than homosexuality. A quick word search of the Bible shows that God hates cross dressing. Yet we have helped several people in our own store dress up like the opposite sex. Sometimes for fun and sometimes they really were cross dressers. My fathers own son and daughters, (my siblings) have dressed up as the opposite sex and taken pictures in his store for fun and the only problem my father had was that they made a mess.
And what about divorce? We will admit adultery is a sin but divorce is ok. It is unfortunate but still acceptable. When Jesus himself says ,“He answered, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her.’” Mark 10:11. I know prominent members of my former church who have divorced and remarried and now have positions in the church. I don’t know the whole story and I am not judging anyone because I believe in grace, but when they pick something like homosexuality to damn someone and ignore their own damning sin it looks like the very definition of a double standard. If they have divorced and remarried they have committed adultery and by these Old Testament standards they hold they should be put to death. It’s a good thing we have the story of the woman caught in adultery when Jesus says those precious words, "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more." Christians might say that the homosexuals are not repenting from their sin but maybe it’s because they haven’t met Jesus yet…
My father also said you couldn’t be a homosexual and be a Christian and I asked why you could be a glutton or be greedy or a liar and still go to heaven? Every Christian is one or another and yet these are acceptable. These are good sins. He said you couldn’t continue to sin and be saved. I think I’ll stand on grace because I wouldn’t make it otherwise.

I asked him if he knew why Sodom was destroyed and he didn’t know. Again it seems like he doesn’t even know his Bible. Ezekiel 16:49-50 " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.”
Now homosexuality could be one of these detestable things, but if it were so important wouldn’t they mention it by name and maybe leave out “overfed” or “Did not help the poor and the needy?”. These sins seem familiar…

It tears me up inside to look into the eyes of my father and those like him and realize that he doesn't care about “love” he cares about "truth" whatever that is. He thinks that homosexuals need to know "you are going to hell", not Jesus. True or not shouldn't our heart be broken? This reminds me of a quote:
“Sometimes in an effort to remind people of the cost of the cross we withhold grace until we are sure they understand their sin but it’s in the giving of our grace that we remind people to go to Jesus to find their own. People understand their sin without our help, it’s grace that they need help understanding.”-Youtube video “Finding grace”
Why stand on the side of condemnation and being "right" rather than love? Why do we think we can condemn sin when the one who NEVER sinned didn't condemn (John 8 3:17)? Still doesn’t if I’m not mistaken...
I am not saying homosexuality is a sin or not. It probably is but my point is who cares!? It isn’t about this being a sin or not because all sins get you the same death. The sin of lying will condemn the homosexual just as much as homosexuality. You can change all the laws you want and it might get people to act more Christian but it won’t make them more Christ-like. Christ said it was all about the heart. He preached that if you have anger and hatred you have the same spirit of murder. If you have lust it is the same spirit as adultery. If we change the laws so no homosexual can be married or no one can get a legal abortion they might act a little better so Christians don’t freak out but the hearts will be the same.
To borrow the phrase "render unto Caesar" maybe we should focus less on politics and more on people. I am under the opinion that Christians should vote and have their say but to get overly involved in politics seems like this world is our home. Get involved in people’s lives, not bills and amendments.
What would Jesus do? As the tired phrase goes… Would he pray against the homosexuals? Would he start with, “God, please bless the homos”?
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lionwoman
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Re: "God, please bless the homos"

Post by lionwoman »

Kameron, I agree with your viewpoint. We've discussed these issues here on the board some. Many Christians carry on endlessly about homosexuality and abortion (favorites in the political arena) while so many other sins are ignored. One blog of Darin's that comes to mind is "Command to Witness." It sounds to me like your father's way of thinking is similar to so many religious people. They have a few issues they get really heated about and assume their feelings and viewpoints are 100% backed up by the Bible, when often they don't really even know their Bible. Even if they do, they take so many things out of context that they end up contradicting themselves all over the place.

In the end, the proof-texting method is trying to substitute rules for relationship. As new-covenant believers that doesn't work. It ends up making us look foolish and worse, ruins our witness. That's my opinion and I'm stickin' to it. :)

Is your blog under the name you use here, "Kameron Messer?"
I'm not a smart man, but I know what love is. - Forrest Gump
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Ann Onymous
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Re: "God, please bless the homos"

Post by Ann Onymous »

I have gay friends. So to see how some "Christians" act toward them makes me sick. And I agree with you Kameron, I wonder what it would look like with the tables turned on them.

Unfortunately, I find more often than not, that most "hard line Christians" won't be convinced of anything.

Sounds like you were pretty angry, and I understand that. My getting angry led to my practice of "don't cast pearls before swine" and when someone says/does/shows me something I don't agree with, I just say "hm, interesting" and go on with it.
“But you can’t access God through the intellect, It’s got to be through the heart. It’s been my experience that when you intellectualize the divine, you’re gonna get your a$$ kicked.” - Billy Corgan
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AidaC
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Re: "God, please bless the homos"

Post by AidaC »

A while back a gay guy visited my blog. I had been having problems logging into my blog so I did a google search and found his blog. We ended up visiting each other’s blog. I can be pretty thick at times and I never noticed all of the gay banners posted on his blog but he obviously is brighter than I am because he knew immediately that I was a believer.

He was gracious and didn’t say anything on my blog but he told me on his blog that he didn’t like Christians because he could feel the hatred coming from them. He did say that I was sweet like his mother who is a believer and couldn’t believe that God hated her gay son. I told him I was sorry that Christians didn’t always act with love as Jesus would. I stayed for a while and looked around at his blog. In one of his posts, he shared how uncomfortable and fearful he felt when he went out in public with his partner.

That short conversation has really stayed with me. He seemed like a really nice person and it bothered me that he was experiencing hatred from people who should have been showing him love. That conversation was instrumental in me seeing this issue from the perspective of the homosexual.

I find it amazing that believers can show so much hatred for someone they don’t know who has done nothing to them. I suppose the basis of it is fear of what we can’t control.
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Kameronmessmer
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Re: "God, please bless the homos"

Post by Kameronmessmer »

Thanks all for responding! I feel a little validated instead of beat up on. Maybe my father feels like i beat up on him...

Ann- I understand the casting pearls before swine, but i remember Jesus rebuking the religious of His day and i feel like i might be trying to follow that example. :) I have my blogs in several places to widen the readership. Although it seems like not many people find my stuff. Also depends on which blog sites people use. I have:
http://pullingthreads.wordpress.com/
http://pullinthreads.blogspot.com/
As well as on Facebook etc.
lionwoman wrote: Is your blog under the name you use here, "Kameron Messer?"
and it's Kameron MessMer by the way. Thats not the first time this week someones misspelled it. ;) just making sure you can find me if you really want to.
About the gracious gay guy,...it seems sad that there is more grace in sinners than the forgiven. Also too bad most Christians won't find that out. I asked my dad how many gay people he knew. He didnt. I have known close to 5 or 6 bisexual or gay people. That is a lot for Montana btw. We're small and a bit behind and cowboys dont take too kindly to gay people sometimes...
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lionwoman
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Re: "God, please bless the homos"

Post by lionwoman »

oops! sorry Kameron :oops: I really wasn't paying attention there.

Out where we are I'm sure they don't take to gays any more kindly than where you are. I haven't seen one single person who 'appears' gay out here at all. Thanks for the website, I'll take a look!
I'm not a smart man, but I know what love is. - Forrest Gump
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Ann Onymous
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Re: "God, please bless the homos"

Post by Ann Onymous »

Kameronmessmer wrote: Ann- I understand the casting pearls before swine, but i remember Jesus rebuking the religious of His day and i feel like i might be trying to follow that example.
But isn't that what the whole argument was about? They believe they are doing right by 'rebuking' gay people and you believe you're right and rebuke him....

Maybe I misunderstood....I generally try to approach the whole thing by saying "I believe" and then go on. If its not received, then I stop. I realize that Jesus did it, but IMO there's just too much rebuking going around. Not only that, but you can't catch flies with vinegar, you know?
“But you can’t access God through the intellect, It’s got to be through the heart. It’s been my experience that when you intellectualize the divine, you’re gonna get your a$$ kicked.” - Billy Corgan
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Re: "God, please bless the homos"

Post by wildmommy »

I am with you on the lack of love shown by being so anti gay Kameron! In fact, I was involved in a Christian homeschooling group in the not too distant past and I once posted that same Grace You Tube video that you mentioned on our group’s email loop. That video makes me cry every time I watch it, but if memory serves no one in my group responded to say that it impacted them at all and the only person who did respond was against it and told me I should learn Kirk Cameron’s method of evangelism called “The Way of the Master” which teaches that you need to expose the person’s sin before they will recognize their need for Jesus. Sorry, been there, done that, not going back!

I was involved in Christian homeschooling circles in California during the whole Prop 8 campaign. It actually made me sick to watch at times. Fighting gay marriage has become a Christian cause which many are fighting to stave off the judgment of an angry God. I’ve had conversations with well meaning Christians who also got angry with me at the mention of God’s love and grace. A sweet little Christian girl can sure quickly get her backbone up and attack if you try to shake her anti gay paradigm up a bit. She told me that Christian churches in America preach too much love and grace but fail to preach on sin enough. Seriously????? I guess she has been in very different churches than I have. I think many Christians think our churches are lukewarm because we aren't fighting against sin enough but I wonder if lukewarm really means we are trying to mix the law and grace.

Early in my Christian walk I remember asking why a fat pastor can make such a big deal out of homosexuality but not such a big deal out of other sins like gluttony. How could we listen to a sermon against homosexuality and then sit down and gorge ourselves with food at the church potluck? I never really got a clear answer but since I struggle with overeating myself, it didn’t feel right to point my finger at other people who struggle in other areas. I’m not saying I didn’t get caught up in some other Christian causes at times (I did have a pro life license plate for awhile) but I wasn’t as fanatical or outspoken as some other Christians….well most of the time anyway….. but even from the beginning the whole homosexual thing just wasn’t ever my cause to fight. I have had a few gay friends over the years too and I couldn’t imagine telling them that they were sinners or have them catch me at an anti gay marriage rally or with a "YES on 8" bumper sticker.

I guess it’s like Darin says, our churches are a mixture of sheep and goats. Especially now that I can see things from the perspective of knowing a loving God who accepts me as I am, it saddens me how little love Christians show to people who aren’t exactly like them sometimes. However I also know that I have made my mistakes too and have come a long way in my journey. I don't even believe a lot of things I believed 5 years ago and I just don't know who I might find I disagree with now but agree with 5 years from now...or even 5 months from now. But I agree with Ann, often we just have to agree to disagree and move on from that subject when people we love just don't get it.

Kirsten
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JanO
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Re: "God, please bless the homos"

Post by JanO »

This is an interesting topic.
Kameron, I thought it was hilarious when you said maybe Christians should be out picketing the shopping malls and buffets. Where would they go after church???? What would they eat on Sunday? Where would they buy their church clothes? I don't know why religious people can't see their own faulty thinking. For that matter, I don't know why I don't see my own :)

I applaud your efforts to enlighten your relatives....it's really frustrating when they won't hear what you are saying but will stay pig headedly stuck in some ancient stuff they heard somewhere else.....but I know from experience I am the LEAST likely person to change the minds of my own extended family . Don't get discouraged, though. They just may not be able to 'receive it' from you.

And Kirsten, you said
Seriously????? I guess she has been in very different churches than I have. I think many Christians think our churches are lukewarm because we aren't fighting against sin enough
Churches I've been in are always preaching against the sins they know none of us commit (or the ones we can hide, anyway).....except tithing.....always the guilt messages about not tithing or not attending church often enough :D

I heard one 'word of faith' preacher (and he is probably not the only one) is preaching against the idea of God being about love. He is saying the bible is about judgment, not love. Guess the success of The Shack has rattled lots of cages. I wonder how God feels about his children telling people he is not about love.
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sparklyeyesofwonder
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Re: "God, please bless the homos"

Post by sparklyeyesofwonder »

I am so encouraged by the love that all of you show on this forum...

It's been about two years since my daughter's best friend shared with us that she is gay... What is sick about this information is that I heard it from one of the elder's wives from our old church first...(are you kidding me!!) They were praying her up...and passing it around... all in the name of God...

She belonged to the youth group in our old church for as longs as I can remember... Even, when we all left, she stayed on as an intern and was supposed to return for a part time job after graduation from a Christian college... She thought it only fair to share with them her new sexual orientation... I guess, that's when the frenzied call for prayer started... She was told (we love you), but we have no place for you in our church... The senior pastor would not even speak to her...

Every relationship she had fell... one by one they just stopped talking to her... everyone except her parents, and our family...

This kinda shocked me... Maybe, I am just naive and stupid but... I just can't wrap my head around this... This girl is the greatest... I could no longer stop loving her than I could one of my own children... But, somehow everyone else could :?: ... They all turned their back on her... some privately and some very publicly...(it makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about it)...

Hate the sin, love the sinner.... What a bunch of crap...

Anyway, every year we take a weeks vacation out to our favorite oasis lake(with friends and family). Last year there were over 100 of us...
On Saturday night we have a talent show and my daughter and myself , along with her best friend and her friend...are going to do a rendition of Anrdea Gibson's "Say Yes"... It is powerful...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hee7T8MbHGs

Enjoy..
Wish you were here...
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lionwoman
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Re: "God, please bless the homos"

Post by lionwoman »

It is very interesting how sexual sin of any kind, especially homosexuality, causes such a frenzy among Christians. News such as with your daughter's best friend is like dropping a wad of wonder bread into a goldfish bowl. oooohhh,, something to get excited about. :roll: :? Such things wouldn't be so ooh aah if people would get out of their little glass fishbowl and take a broader look at life... sigh. Meanwhile I'm sure the same people are ignoring their own sins of gluttony, gossip, greed, etc. because well, those sins just aren't as bad. :roll:

I hope you have a great time on your vacation! :) When do you leave?
I'm not a smart man, but I know what love is. - Forrest Gump
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Re: "God, please bless the homos"

Post by brain105 »

Indeed, God bless the homos...and the heteros, the muslims, the atheists, the rich and poor. Let his love heal the wounds of mind heart and body. Let his strength stand in the place of all our weakness. Let his light shine into the darkness of our blindness. Indeed, light his light shine so bright our flesh is blinded a new. Making us not see all that is in the world, but only having our minds seared with heaven and His reality. Let out words and actions be fueled by this weight of Him, this pain of his. His pain now and His pain then. Let it echo. Let it echo into the ears of the deaf so they may hear His pain for them, His love for them...the price He has paid for their completion, their wholeness.

Indeed God bless the homos. While man looks on the outside, God looks on the inside. His love covers a multitude of sins. So let our actions be the same. Let it be said of us that we are known by our love for one another. When Jesus commanded to love our neighbors as ourselves, let it be said we did it wholesale, without partiality, without reservation. We attacked the strongholds with love. We warred with the weapon of love. Our battle cry was His love at all costs. Our war machines were not brutal, mechanical and indifferent. Our victory comes with softness, delicateness and tenderness.

Any of us who take up arms impetuously, arrogantly or presumptuously we will not fight with. We will stay our hands. We will deal with our own as any other. With love. For let the judgement of God first begin at His house. And let all who fight the love war bare the insignia of His judgement. And let that insignia say MERCY!

Indeed let God bless the homos.
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Re: "God, please bless the homos"

Post by WendyNCanada »

Its interesting because this is one of the "last straws" which made me leave the IC.

The last adult Sunday School class I went to was on the topic of "if a Christian non-profit ministry should receive federal funding from the government when the government is pro gays and lesbians". They had fired an "employee" who turned out to be a lesbian and this lady had gone to the gov. and the gov. said because the ministry received federal $$ then they had to keep her hired on. The whole group of adults in the Sunday School class didn't even discuss the lesbian issue. It was just so assumed that this lady couldn't be a Christian. So they got off on the theory of Church vs. state and should Christian organizations except gov. funds if the gov. then tells them what to do and who to hire. I was so sick to my stomach by the end of the discussion and felt like if someone in the room had the sexual struggles with homosexuality, they would have gotten up and left and never come back to that IC. It was so judgmental.
I ranted a bit after the class with few people about how I had seen first hand (I am an ex-missionary from overseas) how governments and Christian organizations had helped each other in other countries for the betterment of the local people.
Anyway when I got home, I remember ranting in front of my kids and husband and telling them I would NEVER go to that Sunday School class again. I shocked my son especially and later said, I was just really angry but probably would go back. Little did I know that that seed of disillusionment would grow in me. that was the beginning of the end, since later that month, I told the pastor I was leaving (and my family also left)...and have never looked back!!

I can't believe how blinded I had been in the IC. It would have been only 2 yrs. ago that I was one of those sitting on the other side, in judgment of the homosexuals.
My brothers' first wife turned out to be a lesbian and I am ashamed at how I shunned her some 15 yrs. ago.
God, help us love as you love!! If it isn't race, skin color or political opinion, than its unwed mothers, rebellious teens, homosexuals, drunks that we pin on the wall and throw the stones at. Boy do we sure have it all wrong!! I don't want to live with that judgmental attitude any more!!!!!
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AidaC
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Re: "God, please bless the homos"

Post by AidaC »

Wendy, I can relate to what you said. A number of years ago, I went to a youth conference. It was a large rally with many different churches represented. As part of the entertainment, they had a comedian. Part of his monologue consisted of making fun of homosexuals and men who were effeminate. I was shocked! I couldn't believe what I was hearing.

At the end of the conference, we were given a questionnaire to complete regarding our impressions of the conference. I wrote that I thought the comedian's "humor" was in poor taste since in a group that large, there was bound to be some who were struggling with those issues.
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lionwoman
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Re: "God, please bless the homos"

Post by lionwoman »

It is very sad the way much of the church loves to bash these people. And the truth is none of us are any better. Jesus said, whoever is without sin, let him cast the first stone. I agree Aida, that was in very poor taste. :(
I'm not a smart man, but I know what love is. - Forrest Gump
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