No One Can Save Himself

Discuss all things of Faith, Theology and being a Free Believer...
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Noblemen
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:43 am
the middle number please (7): 7

No One Can Save Himself

Post by Noblemen »

Since God has fixed the creature so that he cannot save himself and needs another to save him, it is obvious that the Christ-Life in that creature could never be withheld because of the creatures failure or sin.
So also Christ finds His greatest triumph and glory in the sphere of human helplessness.
This is the great difference between the Christ Life and religion. Religion means in its simplest definition, "man doing something to please God."
On the other hand, the issue of Satan being the sinner in the creature must be confronted.
Satan, as the sinner, must be disposed of forever.
1st John 3:8 tells us that it was Satan who was the sinner from the beginning.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

When Adam and Eve believed what Satan said in the Garden of Eden, there was birthed in them the Satan nature.
At the time, they, being without any nature at all, awaiting the moment that their minds came to believe what truth they were to be identified with, were subtly and deceitfully taken over by Satan's nature.
Christ, the Lamb of God, came into the world and took away the sin of the world by His vicarious work at Calvary, John 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

The sin nature, dead as Christ was on calvary, killed out by the cross. Paul would say "I am determined to know nothing (nothing) among you but Christ crucified."
Last edited by Noblemen on Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
ianstephenson
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Post by ianstephenson »

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Last edited by ianstephenson on Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Jac
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Re: No One Can Save Himself

Post by Jac »

The whole thing about being "born sinners" needing saving, then Jesus coming to save those who pray the prayer, or ask Jesus into their hearts/lives, or are committed Christians or understand the bible correctly or whatever jargon is used to mean get saved from punishment for sin, puzzles me.

Firstly the bible says God Himself condemns the act of punishing the son for the sins of the father (I presume this includes mothers and daughters too) yet He does do so many times, if the bible is accurate. The most obvious example is God punishing those who were supposedly born sinners because of the choice of Adam and Eve to disobey God. You can't blame someone born deaf for not hearing or a person born blind for not seeing or someone born with epilepsy for having seizures so why condemn people, if born sinners, for sinning? It is what they were born to do if the theology we are taught is true.

Then we say God chooses a few of those sinners to be saved by grace (mostly educated comparatively rich people who have access to a bible).

Another puzzling thing to me is the whole business of needing someone to be punished for our sins before God can forgive. He tells us to forgive as He forgives, so does that mean we have to punish someone innocent before we forgive the person who wronged us? He supposedly always did, whether it was a slaughtered animal or His own Son. I know, the old justice angle but that doesn't satisfy me either. It is not justice in any shape or form to punish someone for what they can't help doing because of how they were born, or to punish someone not born a sinner in place of those who were born sinners. It's like saying God had all this resentment that His creation messed up and someone had to pay no matter what.

I know the old "God is holy and has to punish sin and can't have sin in His presence." pat answer. He doesn't "have to" do anything, or be restricted so He "can't do" things if we believe He is omnipotent To me it makes no sense to punish people for the way they were born through no choice of their own. God sees sin in His presence all the time because He is supposed to see and know everything and be everywhere.

I was amazed to discover that the view of the atonement held by so many evangelical teachings is not the only view there is!

I tend to think Jesus came into this world to experience what it is like for us as human beings. He suffered the worst kind of pain and agony, was let down by other people, betrayed, abandoned by friends in His greatest hour of need, felt abandoned by the Father, wept, felt the outrage of observing mistreatment of children, became frustrated with people just not getting it and experienced all the range of human emotions (including joy!). He saw and experienced humanity doing its worst. All so He could EMPATHISE with us. He wasn't just a god up there distributing punishment and making demands. He says to us "hey, I have been there".

Empathy is not a popular thing these days, as we are all encouraged to look after ourselves and our interests, but in times of suffering the greatest comfort can be knowing someone else has been there and understands or if they haven't been there they at least try to appreciate what it must be like and so empathise.

I wrote all this then went to my husband and told him "I think I am a heretic!" He gave me a hug. A little bit of love goes a long way and whatever doctrine is right or wrong I do believe God is love and that in really knowing His love is to be found the answer.

I don't believe my thoughts are necessarily right and the questions I have are necessarily valid. I just find it so hard to know how to think and be sometimes.
Noblemen
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:43 am
the middle number please (7): 7

Re: No One Can Save Himself

Post by Noblemen »

ianstephenson wrote:Later edit. I decided to delete my original post as it was inappropriate. My occasional frustrations at posted comments should remain civil.
ian I really do get it and it's ok, I sting a little like everyone else but I can take it if I have to.
I'm trying to reach out to you on a computer, that's hard to do. I would be lying if I said I haven't had my feelings hurt on here but I'm ok.
I realize what I'm doing is going to draw different options, but I would like to say that I'm not your enemy, and very much care about you others in here. It may seem like it by the way I write but you have to admit whether you agree or not that I'm throwing out some thought provoking treads.
Noblemen
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:43 am
the middle number please (7): 7

Re: No One Can Save Himself

Post by Noblemen »

Jac wrote:The whole thing about being "born sinners" needing saving, then Jesus coming to save those who pray the prayer, or ask Jesus into their hearts/lives, or are committed Christians or understand the bible correctly or whatever jargon is used to mean get saved from punishment for sin, puzzles me.

Firstly the bible says God Himself condemns the act of punishing the son for the sins of the father (I presume this includes mothers and daughters too) yet He does do so many times, if the bible is accurate. The most obvious example is God punishing those who were supposedly born sinners because of the choice of Adam and Eve to disobey God. You can't blame someone born deaf for not hearing or a person born blind for not seeing or someone born with epilepsy for having seizures so why condemn people, if born sinners, for sinning? It is what they were born to do if the theology we are taught is true.

Then we say God chooses a few of those sinners to be saved by grace (mostly educated comparatively rich people who have access to a bible).

Another puzzling thing to me is the whole business of needing someone to be punished for our sins before God can forgive. He tells us to forgive as He forgives, so does that mean we have to punish someone innocent before we forgive the person who wronged us? He supposedly always did, whether it was a slaughtered animal or His own Son. I know, the old justice angle but that doesn't satisfy me either. It is not justice in any shape or form to punish someone for what they can't help doing because of how they were born, or to punish someone not born a sinner in place of those who were born sinners. It's like saying God had all this resentment that His creation messed up and someone had to pay no matter what.

I know the old "God is holy and has to punish sin and can't have sin in His presence." pat answer. He doesn't "have to" do anything, or be restricted so He "can't do" things if we believe He is omnipotent To me it makes no sense to punish people for the way they were born through no choice of their own. God sees sin in His presence all the time because He is supposed to see and know everything and be everywhere.

I was amazed to discover that the view of the atonement held by so many evangelical teachings is not the only view there is!

I tend to think Jesus came into this world to experience what it is like for us as human beings. He suffered the worst kind of pain and agony, was let down by other people, betrayed, abandoned by friends in His greatest hour of need, felt abandoned by the Father, wept, felt the outrage of observing mistreatment of children, became frustrated with people just not getting it and experienced all the range of human emotions (including joy!). He saw and experienced humanity doing its worst. All so He could EMPATHISE with us. He wasn't just a god up there distributing punishment and making demands. He says to us "hey, I have been there".

Empathy is not a popular thing these days, as we are all encouraged to look after ourselves and our interests, but in times of suffering the greatest comfort can be knowing someone else has been there and understands or if they haven't been there they at least try to appreciate what it must be like and so empathise.

I wrote all this then went to my husband and told him "I think I am a heretic!" He gave me a hug. A little bit of love goes a long way and whatever doctrine is right or wrong I do believe God is love and that in really knowing His love is to be found the answer.

I don't believe my thoughts are necessarily right and the questions I have are necessarily valid. I just find it so hard to know how to think and be sometimes.
We're all there or been there Jenny. Sometimes it feels like I'm the only one that feels like this, or is going through this but we are not alone in this journey. We are a group, the body of Christ and sometimes we don't know how to handle that or each other.
But regardless we keep trying, we keep putting one foot in front of the other and encourage others to keep doing the same.
Not easy to go through this school house, but know that you are not alone, I see Christ in you and all you do.
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