Music Is It Neutral

[Bull of the Woods]

Personally, I like to recognize reality. So I wouldn't say I don't like christian music, just like I wouldn't say I don't like soul music or jazz or blues. Because within any of the genres is good and bad stuff.
I guess we can argue what percentages etc, but there is no such thing as a brand or genre that is all good, or all bad in quality. Except maybe screaming heavy metal. No matter what anyone here says, that stuff stinks! I say that jokingly in a way, but personally can't stand it.
I admit I am jaded with much of the commerical stuff of contemporary christian. But I imagine there is good in there despite that . Meaning some artists and quality thats ineteresting. I thought, for instance, that David Crowder at times was at least trying to be creative. And there are probably a number of lesser knowns who do some good stuff.
The Newsboys were very pop light and formulaic overall, yet I got to meet and speak with Peter Furler a couple times and I had the strong impression that what they were doing had a purpose and he is genuine. Though of course that doesn't mean one must like that music.
I read with interest from time to time posts by folks of songs that "really spoke" to them and wonder what on earth makes them think that is good. Some I agree is good. But for instance take U2. Some christians think they are just great, and to me they are just maybe average. But its cool to think U2 is cool. Bono and all that!

[radio roswell]

I think that's what we're trying to say Jeff. That one size does not fit all. I know of some folks that CCM moves them along with country. I don't get it but they do. My wife and I have opposite tastes in music. Which is why on trips thank God for iPods.

[ridethecatbus]

Good posts, I likey this thread!

A while ago I got this theory that nearly all music is spiritual. When I was a kid and then a teenager in the 90s I listened to tons of rock and metal bands and paid zero attention to lyrics. Now that I am older I am shocked at how much of that music was spiritual. Dead serious. I continue to discover spiritual meanings to those old songs. For instance, I think the song Selling the Drama by Live could be the theme song of the Free Believer. Many of Live's songs are very spiritual. Same with Collective Soul, maybe 50% of their stuff is overtly spiritual.

Even the bands people typically demonize like Metallica, Pantera, and Megadeth have spiritual songs. Some say their spirituality is a bad influence however I think it's genuine and I don't think they were trying to influence anyone. I don't believe the god they've been served is the same god I believe in but at least they are being honest.

Furthermore, I think spirituality includes more than a god or religion reference. Suicide is extremely spiritual as well as love and many other topics. So when I look at music through this lens, I don't see a division of secular or spiritual. It's a spectrum, not an all or nothing.

One day I was singing in church and came across some lines that I whole-heartedly disagreed with. I then paid attention to the lyrics of worship songs for the next few months and finally I decided to stop singing that stuff and stop listening to most of it. I realized I had been lying to God's face with some of these songs. I knew and He knew it. I had the impression that nobody could honestly write these things from their heart. They were devoid of honesty. And the more gushy a song was the more people sang it. Like it was a contest among songwriters or something. I would go so far as to say much of christian music isn't spiritual at all since it isn't honest.

So yeah, dig up those old bands you listened to and discover something spiritual you never saw before. Some of it may surprise you like it did me!

Live - Selling the Drama
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewDAgKKzsSE

[Bull of the Woods]

"One day I was singing in church and came across some lines that I whole-heartedly disagreed with. I then paid attention to the lyrics of worship songs for the next few months and finally I decided to stop singing that stuff and stop listening to most of it. I realized I had been lying to God's face with some of these songs. I knew and He knew it. I had the impression that nobody could honestly write these things from their heart. They were devoid of honesty. And the more gushy a song was the more people sang it. Like it was a contest among songwriters or something. I would go so far as to say much of christian music isn't spiritual at all since it isn't honest."

Can you give some examples? I like examples. I mean of dishonest songs, or dishonest or lying lines of songs.
That would help me to understand what you mean.

I think an honest thouhtful approach to a lot of what we sing in a church setting would reveal that at times we sing things, things about devotion to God say, or of how much we adore Him or will serve Him or tell others of Him etc, and we walk out and we don't.
Is that the kind of thing you are talking about?

I would also say that its my guess, (I wouldn't know any lyrics to heavy metal stuff because I can't stand being screamed at, and frankly other than carrying a strong beat I wouldn't give two cents for most of those bands' musical ability), that the heavy metal bands and many others may seem spiritual and honest and all. But they are making boo-goo bucks and I think its just a show. Mostly I imagine they are into making money for whatever reason they want a lot of money.

[radio roswell]

Hey Ride the cat-bus !! LOL nice name ... welcome to FBN. I know all too well what you mean. did that for many years and cringed all the way..eventually I just would doodle on the offering envelopes during worship. Gosh if I went now i could bring my iphone and keep up on my texts.

I personally don't understand the gushy adoring songs to God. i really don't I mean that's cool if someone does.Or telling him how powerful He is or worthy..like we forgot?? or He did?? it's weird.

Like our God is an Awesome God..He reigns from heaven above.. ....it's like really?? no kidding huh??

[Joshquinn]

It's more like they are singing why they admire God so much and celebrating what makes God awesome. It's like when someone or of people sing about other things they like, like the physical nature, or their home state/country for example.

[AidaC]

I don’t think the following song qualifies as dishonest because I think Keith Green had a heart of love for God and sang from his heart. However, I do believe he tended to view his Christian experience from an Old Covenant framework so some of his songs have a strong Old Covenant theme which can create greater bondage in the person who sings them or listens to them. We’re no longer under the Old Covenant and God has already given us a new heart so we don’t have to plead with him to give us one nor would God even consider casting away one of his children. The work of salvation has already been done and this song although it has very pretty music is fear based and can ultimately do great damage to the person who hears it and believes it.

[/youtube]

As far as Christian music is concerned, it’s pretty much like any other music as far as I’m concerned. Some I like and some I don’t.

It's more like they are singing why they admire God so much and celebrating what makes God awesome. It's like when someone or of people sing about other things they like, like the physical nature, or their home state/country for example.

I think you’ve made a good point, Josh. I believe those type of songs are meant to be faith builders and the person is actually singing those songs in order to convince themselves that God is as great as they’re saying he is. I really don’t believe God needs nor wants us to constantly be telling him how wonderful he is but I believe he also understands that when our faith is weak, we sometimes may have to convince ourselves of it.

I do believe as we grow to know him better that our relationship with him may take a different track and all of that singing becomes unnecessary. However, everyone is different and others may continue this type of relationship even as their relationship grows and that’s okay as long as they accept and understand that some of us don’t need that anymore and don't enjoy it as much as they do.

[Joshquinn]

I think you’ve made a good point, Josh. I believe those type of songs are meant to be faith builders and the person is actually singing those songs in order to convince themselves that God is as great as they’re saying he is. I really don’t believe God needs nor wants us to constantly be telling him how wonderful he is but I believe he also understands that when our faith is weak, we sometimes may have to convince ourselves of it.

I do believe as we grow to know him better that our relationship with him may take a different track and all of that singing becomes unnecessary. However, everyone is different and others may continue this type of relationship even as their relationship grows and that’s okay as long as they accept and understand that some of us don’t need that anymore and don't enjoy it as much as they do.

Yeah! That is excatly it. I don't usually mind listening to gospel music (and their are some I like I think though I can't recall at the moment) though nowadays eversince I became familar with the problems of Christianity I have become more strict as to what gospel music I would accept. That I have been more focus on listening to the lyrics of songs in general lately.

[Bull of the Woods]

I guess we better toss out lots of the Psalms from the bible. And where there are other places in the bible in which the people are singing. A lot of it is saying what is wonderful etc about God.
I guess David and Moses and folks like that were whistling in the dark, trying to convince themselves that God is as great as they say He is.
I could paste in a couple NT passages as well. That believers were encouraged to sing, even to one another.
But if a person doesn't like that sort of thing, or is skeptical, its not going to be right to tell them they must. It won't be real.
But with what I hear in the lyrics of lots of the "spiritual" stuff by unbelievers, I am not sure how one can come to the conclusion that much of it is "good" and of value.

[ms.r.c.]

When the night has come
And the land is dark
And the moon is the only light we'll see
No I won't be afraid, no I won't be afraid
Just as long as you stand, stand by me

And darlin', darlin', stand by me, oh now now stand by me
Stand by me, stand by me

If the sky that we look upon
Should tumble and fall
And the mountains should crumble to the sea
I won't cry, I won't cry, no I won't shed a tear
Just as long as you stand, stand by me

And darlin', darlin', stand by me, oh stand by me
Stand by me, stand by me, stand by me, yeah

Whenever you're in trouble won't you stand by me, oh now now stand by me
Oh stand by me, stand by me, stand by me

Darlin', darlin', stand by me, stand by me
Oh stand by me, stand by me, stand by me


I'd say those are pretty powerful words. I think the key is if the songs are real, if they come from the heart, if they are unfeigned. I also think it matters if the music is good and original. It always turns me off when I hear blatant plagiarism usually popular music. Even if the words are good, I just can't get past the dishonesty of the song writer. Sometimes Christian music clashes with what I believe, other times it really lifts me up. This is an old hymn that I love to sing:

"Joyful, joyful, we adore Thee,
God of glory, Lord of love;
Hearts unfold like flow’rs before Thee,
Op’ning to the sun above.
Melt the clouds of sin and sadness;
Drive the dark of doubt away;
Giver of immortal gladness,
Fill us with the light of day!

All Thy works with joy surround Thee,
Earth and heav’n reflect Thy rays,
Stars and angels sing around Thee,
Center of unbroken praise.
Field and forest, vale and mountain,
Flow’ry meadow, flashing sea,
Singing bird and flowing fountain
Call us to rejoice in Thee.

Thou art giving and forgiving,
Ever blessing, ever blest,
Wellspring of the joy of living,
Ocean depth of happy rest!
Thou our Father, Christ our Brother,
All who live in love are Thine;
Teach us how to love each other,
Lift us to the joy divine.

Mortals, join the happy chorus,
Which the morning stars began;
Father love is reigning o’er us,
Brother love binds man to man.
Ever singing, march we onward,
Victors in the midst of strife,
Joyful music leads us Sunward
In the triumph song of life."

Some of the old hymns take me back to my childhood, I would sing while my mother played.

[NaomiStar]

Dear Ms.R.C.
Thanks for posting Joyful, Joyful. I just took the time to sing the whole hymn! Such a beautiful hymn. I grew up listening to hymns and then my husband (then my H.S. bf) introduced me to Christian Rock. I moved more towards contemporary Christian and praise and worship. Right now, I'm at a place where I'm not really listening to music; it's just not what's more important. Between my hubby and I, we own over 5000 "Christian" songs and what used to be some of my favorites are no longer in my favorite list; mostly cause they remind me of the old covenant thinking and religious manipulation. With the hymns I find the same thing. Joyful, Joyful is a beautiful example of the exception.
My children know that I will let them listen to anything as long as what they are listening to makes them better people. Does it encourage? Is it true, is it right, is it lovely, is it admirable, etc. ? You know the old saying, garbage in garbage out, that's how we approach anything in my home be it tv, books, and/or magazines.
One of my old time favorite hymns is Amazing Grace, but as a free believer the lyrics don't quiet agree with me. So I rewrote it and I sing it often. I hope I don't get anybody offended by rewriting Amazing Grace I want to share it in hopes of encouragement.
Amazing Grace
Re-written for the Free Believers

Amazing grace how sweet the sound
That loves me true and free
I hardly can believe how great His love for me
He loves me the way I am.

'Tis grace that sees and still loves me
And grace that draws me near
How gracious is His love for me
In every day of my mine

Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come;
'Tis Grace that has held me thru the path
Whether good or bad or sad

The Lord has said He'll be with me.
His love my hope secures.
He wants me to know Him, intimately
Now and through out eternity.

Yes, He wants me to know within
How much He delights in me,
He wants me to accept this love He has for me,
A life of being friends with Him.

When I leave this earth to be with Him
And my beloved Friend greets me.
I'll finally see my Father face to face
And truly know His love for me.

[Warangel]

Growing up in the IC (A/G pentecostal) I was constantly bombared with sermons by various pastors, evangelists and the like about the evils of any music that was slightly faster than hymns. At a youngster in the 80's (the 80's rock! I was drawn to music by Michael Jackson, Run DMC, and other pop music. When I was visiting friends I would listen to it at their house then return to my spiritually abusive home where it was VERBOTEN! Later, as a teenager, one of my good friends would copy his Petra tapes for me and slip them like a drug deal. Somehow, I was smart enough to play the ballads for my earthy father who agreed to let me keep the tapes. Harder music such as Whitecross followed. I still remember listening to my "Triumphant Return" Whitecross CD and jamming to Rex Carol making his guitar "sing". My mother walked into the room and said: "Turn that Devil music off in my house".
Needless to say, Carmen was hard rock to her !
Fast forward two decades. I still listen to what would be considered "christain music" (POD, Pillar, Skillet, Styper, etc) because I LIKE IT! Not because I think listening to something that was "secular" will turn me into a raving zombie with 666 on my head.
Besides, there is nothing "secular" in my life because God is present. That stopped the moment he and I met. Sure, that is not taught in churches (IC) but they would lose power and money if people knew:
washing dishes, mowing the grass, going to work, etc-it is all sanctified now.
As much as I love you my brothers, I cannot stand hearing about reasons why I can't listen to certain types of music (or shouldn't).
Simply put-God created it all. Be blessed and rock out! Or Opera out! Or whatever your cup of tea is.
I love you in Christ.

[radio roswell]

Opera Out !!
Welcome to the forum Warangle...

I'm Jeff..nice to meet you.

[NaomiStar]

Has anybody ever heard "Because You Love Me" by Celine Dion?
Today a friend asked Me to sing at a formal fashion dinner event her business is sponsoring. Without even hesitating the first name which came to mind was Celine Dion. And out of my mouth came the words "Oh, sure. I can sing. And I will pick something from Celine Dion,"
What in the world was I thinking!??????
In fact I don't think I was thinking .
I have performed many times for religious crowds during Sunday mornings, weddings, special occasions but I have never, ever performed for a nonreligious gathering. And there I was making a commitment to sing with only three weeks to practice at a formal event in a Marine town. Practice for not one but two songs! Isn't Father incredible? I'm still surprise how He got me this gig without me even looking and for the first time ever in my life I'll have the freedom to lift my voice to Him with songs that do not even mention Him by name. Surrounded by people who do not claim to have gathered in His name.
Celine Dion's voice has always fascinated me, but I was not interested in listening to songs sang by singers who, as far as I know were not clear about their relationship with Father. And since the religious music I have, just reminded me of old covenant relationship; well, I just stopped listening to music all together. Unless my husband was around rocking with his favorite bands (which he had carefully hand picked for it's celebration of new covenant love) I would just choose not to listen to anything.
Father does set us free and when He sets us free, He sets us free indeed. He has given me the wings to fly and now He is blowing the wind for me to soar high in the sky.
I came home and selected three songs. It was easy and effortless. I could see the truth of His love in the lyrics of each of the songs I picked. In fact, ""Because You Love Me" is probably the most beautiful expression of love from my heart (his bride) to my bridegroom. It clearly describes how much He loves me and how safe I am in His love.
I also selected, "That's The Way It Is" and "I'm Alive".

[Warangel]

Jeff,
Thanks for the welcome. Mucho gusto (pleasure to meet you). I look forward to chatting with my brethen here on the forum.
Rock on with your bad self! (By the way, bad in that sentence is good!)
James